bellhousings finished for R-154 7/20/2007

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:18 pm

Bill is talking about torque. 1000hp from the 4G63 is awesome. I've seen a couple out there, but nothing is worth a damn in a AWD setup. Shep has done it, but I hear he babies it out of the hole as to not break stuff. Buschur has their Conquest and Powerglide setup that is running well too. I'd like to see what you come up with.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:55 am

I been watching GRNDSM( Leon's) work on hydralic throw out bearing and I must say , its VERY intresting, VERY nice work

I thought I would take the time to take some measurements to work with, first I bolted up a pressure plate with a used ,wore out disc that I know slipped . this showed the clutch pressure plate fingers ( spring) at its maximuim travel or when the throw out bearing should be self adjusting at its its farthest away from the pressure plate fingers

Then I replace the disc with a new unit and remeasured to find out the relative range of motion the pressure plate fingers would need to allow the dics to use its maximum life span. I found that range to be 8mm measured from the center of the crankshaft inside the pilot bearing, this told me that the throw out bearing had self adjust 8 mm during the maximum life span of the disc,

In the mean time, the throw out bearing had to release the pressure plate during the course of the life of the disc and I measured that motion to be 11mm with a new disc and fully assembled clutch/fork/throw out bearing arraingement.
What this tells me is that the throw out bearing must be placed somewhere in the middle/ begginning of its range of adjustment with a new disc and as the disc is worn down, the hydralic cylinder must self adjust ( or absorb) its travel torwards the middle /end of its travel
what does all this have to do with hydralic clutchs? well, if you were to install an internal hydralic throw out bearing with a 3/8 stroke, it would mean you would have to allow 1/8 inch free travel as a preadjustment to allow the throw out bearing the space to retract after it does its work, based on the fact that the pressure plate has to move 7/16 ( 11mm) to release and still allow the disc to wear the distance of 8mm ( 1/8)inch
On the other hand, if you were to adjust an hydralic clutch/throw out bearing too close to the pressure plate, the clyinder would be capable of pushing the dics into the flywheel causing a mechanical bind
what do you think? any input /suggestions would be welcome

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:33 am

So, it seems that the 3/8" travel TOB is not enough, but if you go to 3/4" you could have too much travel correct??

Why not just size your Master cyl. that give you only enough volume to let the 3/4" TOB travel only as much as you wanted. You could do this with a combo of the size of the Master cyl. and threw limiting the travel of the clutch pedal.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:18 pm

no the 3/8 is correct your forgeting that the clutch fork is set at 2 to 1 so when I measured 11mm ( 7/16 in) of clutch fork travel, it was only 1/2 of that given travel at the throw out bearing , so an internal throw out bearing would only move 1/8 inch ( 5.5mm)
with a 3/8 travel bearing with 1/8 preadjusted free travel would put the bearing right in the middle of its stroke allowing the bearing to release the disc at full 3/8 stroke when the disc is new and then allowing the center of travel to move backwards ( absorbing adjustment) as the disc wore down

what I am trying to determine is an exact location of the front of the throw out bearing face to be spaced away from the back of the engine block so it would have a permanent perch to be located

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 2:33 am

Sorry, did not even realize you were talking about fork movement. I don't recall seeing the picture of the fork untill I just read it.

I don't understand what you need to know. It would seem to me that you would simply take your measurement from the tips of the pres. plate fingers+1/8"+the thickness of the TOB when fully retracted and build something that bolts to the front bearing retainer of the trans to hold the TOB at this measurement.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:56 am

that is exactly what I am going to do Robert

great minds think alike, but I have to make sure the release bearing has enough strength in its mounting to absorb the pressure needed to release some of these high pressure, double disc clutch set ups

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Sun Feb 17, 2008 5:35 pm

Maybe you should just build a new front bearing retainer completely out of a single machined piece. This would probably give you more strength than other methods.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:19 pm

On the new R 154 bellhousings I have added the internal throw out bearing so you dont have to find parts to make it work for you

I spent a lot of time detailing the rear section to save some weight

And I made all the gussets larger to accept the extra load from the throw out bearing input for heavier clutchs

This bellhousing can be machine either way, either the internal throw out bearing or the traditional Mits clutch fork can be used, you must specify what you want when you order

This is the bearing that Leon used in his project

This will go into casting on Monday

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:02 am

Bill,

Great work!

Make sure that you orient the TOB such that bleeder is the highest point of the air cavity! The orientaion of mounting studs on my TOB is 100% vertical, so it appears that there might be a bit of an air pocked, I will not know for sure until I try to bleed it on the car.

I might have to jack-up the car from one side to tilt it during bleeding

.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:54 am

Once again this work was done because of GRNDSM ( leon Reitmen) ground work and ' old colt's' input
I will be building the T 56 in the same manner but not the W 55
I will be casting this bellhousing Monday and that should take two weeks, while that is in casting I will be updating the w 55 series and hopfully recast that in the next three weeks, by then I should have the R 154's back for machine testing and final pattern design
I will be finishing the T 56 while I am waiting for the W 55 castings to come back
The reloater for the CAS is also being re thought to include a reverse entry intake manifold

75COLT · Post by **75COLT** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:19 am

you go Bill!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 7:27 pm

while i am casting the w-55's I am cutting a couple sample R 154's with internal throw out bearings to see if i need to adjust the pattern

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lulutalon · Post by **lulutalon** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:54 am

Looking good!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:07 am

yeah, it is kinda nice >;o) every time I cast and build I apply what I learned last time, this thing is sweet
I have to build in adjustment shims ( not needed but I think it would be wise) and I have to order , locate and install the bleeder line and hook up line, when I send this out is will be pre-adjusted to the stock Mits clucht and you can just plug and play this thing
I raised the two lower skirts on all my new bellhousings, trying to get as much ground clearance as i can, so I still need to build the lower side mounts, but because I finally got a 'standardized' set up I can build those like out of a cookie cutter and they can or can not be bought when you get a bell housing, the future plans include the lower mounts built into an oil pan that would be included in a dry sump oil system. the oil pan can also be used without the drysump system with an interchangeable sump so it can be mounted in any frame configuration

lulutalon · Post by **lulutalon** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 8:14 am

That's awesome news because the donor car I have in mind, does require a rear sump oil pan to clear the stock cross member.

Prevolution · Post by **Prevolution** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:47 pm

I've been following this thread for a while and am in need for advice on what's the best transmission (least amount of modifications) for my 1974 dodge Colt to mate a 4G63T to.

The car is currntly set up for a normally aspirated 4G54.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:01 pm

NOBODY, has broken either transmisions behind any of my bellhousings, either the W 55/59 non turbo trans or the R 154 Supra turbo trans, it would take a chrysler hemi to break the r 154!
the w 55/59 is a nice entry level low cost set up that puts anybody in a RWD 4G63
there are front drive shaft yokes available for both transmisions to go to a standard 1300 series u-joint

http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic ... ht=ujoints

The W 55 has 5 differnt shifter length locations available from the factory, its thin enough to fit the existing tunnel and its CHEAP

check out this website http://users.tpg.com.au/users/loats/tec ... oxes2.html

Prevolution · Post by **Prevolution** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:39 pm

Thanks Bill !

I'm using the Colt for stage rally racing and the tranny would get lots of abuse. I'd like the 4G63T to put 280 - 300HP / and the same torque to the rear wheels. Of course more power would be nice when the car isn't on stage.

The W55... would it be suitable for rally type abuse ?

What cars does / did the W55 come in ?

What would work for clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel, etc ?

Sorry for the newb questions...

Prevolution · Post by **Prevolution** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:46 pm

Okay wikipedia answered one of my questions :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_W_transmission

Is the W58 a lot larger than the W55 ?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:36 pm

Looks really good Bill. On the internal TOB housings, does the shoulder left in the housing help keep the tob ceNtered up to the pressure plate?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:00 pm

a tube will be machined into the bellhousing where the throw out bearing mounts to the bellhousing to center it, the TOB does not bolt solid to the bellhousing, it just floats on the 4 adjustable bolts and the only pressure is the force behind the TOB. If the bearing never fails

then there is no need to ancor the TOB to the bellhousing, because no twisting force exits

The W 55 / 58 series trans is and excellent choice for 250 to 300 hp, the trans came in everything from pick up trucks to Corrola's to non turbo Supra's they are as common as whores in a truck stop, many different gear ratios are available in the trans to tune them to the car they came with, choosing the right trans could prove to be helpful for the kind of use the car is planned for

the flywheel ,pressure plate and starter on all my stuff is from the front wheel drive first gen 6 bolt set up, the Clutch fork, pivot ball and TOB on the W series comes from the donor trans, the disc is 40 bucks at Napa and is a std 9 in toyota disc, you gotta enlrage the center of the flywheel ( I can do that for you) and I supply a bushing to put the ( Toyota)pilot bearing in the crankshaft

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:50 am

Will the bleeder valve be located outside the bellhousing?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 2:02 am

Bill,

Have you been able to figure just now "even" the TOB needs to be with respect to the clutch? And how would you measure it?

Also, I doubt that you will be able to get all 4 points to make contact. I think that they are designed to work just two studs.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:40 am

two studs may be a good idea because you are working with a diaphram style spring it is not practical to believe the fingers of the spring will remain true and square to the bearing. It has been my experience to allow as much ' freedom of movement' with anything rotating while maintaining proper adjustment.
The perch I have built is square to the bellhousing/engine surface, the pressure from releasing the clutch will be absorbed by the full profile of the back of the TOB, the studs will only hold the bearing in the indexed location so that the hydralic lines will not be moved

As far as the connecting lines, the lines offered as part of this set are very long, too log, I had first thought about mounting the bleeder right on the bellhousing, but I can not dictate where the bleeder will wind up because the bellhousing will be used in so many different type cars, so I cant locate it ' conveinently'
I will continue to source out the lines I want , but from what I see, the bleeder may be mounted on the firewall of the car to be placed at the owners discretion

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:26 pm

bill the tob looks sweet. what is the difference in cost going to be when going with the tob slave set up?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 3:34 pm

Bill,

Check out how one of my TR7/8 buddies did the lines (he is using a similar bearing):

If I wasn't treating my tranny a temperary solution (I eventually hope to use one of your housings

) I would have done something similar to this!

He is the guy who did a power clutch, which is pretty neat, but not the best thing for turbo engines

.

http://www.triumphcars.com/current/tct1 ... obrake.htm

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:58 pm

Power Clutch! Now all you need is an electric actuator and a computer that knows when to shift, downshift, and blip the throttle.

lulutalon · Post by **lulutalon** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:43 am

Any updates Bill?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:42 pm

PM me Sebastian
We can firm up the deal and I can send you one at the end of this week, all the jigs are done and all the programs are in the computer so I cam make one a day right now, I been putting it off because I got so wrapped up in the T 56 design ( I got some personal time goals to meet)

lulutalon · Post by **lulutalon** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:03 am

Done!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:18 pm

In answer to leon's question about keeping the throw out bearing square to the clutch, I built shims to adjust the throw out bearing, this eliminates the need to use the supplied lock nuts on the studs for adjustment

This is Subatian's bellhousing going out today

lulutalon · Post by **lulutalon** » Tue May 06, 2008 1:21 pm

This is me happy! -->

hehehe

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:50 pm

Guys, I am back working on the TR7.

What is the latest on this adaptor and TOB?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:35 pm

its all set Leon, I have a couple in service now

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 9:27 pm

you can check out the R 154 internal bearing set up here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWxckRJMV_8

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:24 pm

Looks great, Bill!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:42 pm

I have been detailing out some final stuff on the R 154 internal bearing set up

The hydraulic lines cost as much as the throw out bearing

cali · Post by **cali** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 8:54 pm

looks real good. sorry if i missed it, but what would be the benefit of using the interal bearing instead of the regular ol' fork setup? or are you not offering a fork setup on this bh?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:50 pm

It was a custom request from a guy in Finland

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Nov 17, 2008 7:30 pm

Looks awesome, Bill! I gave up on the bulkhead idea, figuring that it will cost too much

.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:02 am

I want to bring down the cost of the R 154 adaptor so I started thinking about a much simpler approach to my other work

I still build the internal bearing set up but its complicated

This time I want to built it lighter and stronger but much more user freindly

I will be joining these two peices into one and then building the throw out bearing collar that will be able to eliminate the cenetr I used to have to build in

If I can lower the machine time down, I can lower cost

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:13 pm

i have had a ton of intrest in the R 154 lately so I been rebuilding it to make it more affordable

This is basicly the W 55 bellhousing with the R 154 adaptor I made a couple years ago, I mated the two together and took a ton of material out of it

It lightened up nicely

this housing will use the first gen Mits clutch fork and pivot ball the throw out bearing will have a custom holder and I am not sure which bearing will use yet , the price should come down subtansually

This unit will also use the AWD flywheel

ramon · Post by **ramon** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:12 am

Hey Bill is Ramon from P.R. when they ready I want one (just waiting)

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:10 am

hello Ramon,
you are the reason I am working so hard to complete this project >;o) , I am working hard to keep my word and have this done by next week, I needed to do this, because I needed a break from the T 56 while I could think about it >;o)
So both projects will be completed at the same time

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:01 am

Let me know too when they are done. I cannot wait to get one.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:05 pm

This is an update for JJ, cali, ramon, and Gambler, I have changed and verified all the spec's on the new r 154 bellhousing

After the skeliton was built , all the panels have been filled in and ribs added

the clutch controls are designed to use first gen FWd clutch fork and pivot ball

now all the panels are blened ,one panel at a time to ensure proper thickness and draft for the casting shop

this is going to be a bit different, I am placing the starter so it can be drilled for the AWD flywheel and the FWD flywheel starter

ramon · Post by **ramon** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:32 pm

nice work Bill kep us update

DoubleJ · Post by **DoubleJ** » Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:30 pm

thanks for the update bill... I am still excited about this new style housing... cannot wait...

cali · Post by **cali** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:10 pm

that looks great Bill! can't wait keep us posted!

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:41 pm

i got my r154 bolted up and ready to be dropped into the car as soon as i adjust the tranny tunnel. remeber boys and girls DONT FORGET TO SHORTEN THE INPUT SHAFT OR YOU WILL BREAK THE EAR OFF THE BLOCK! bills bell is stronger than the cast iron block incase anyone was wondering.

I award myself with the dumbass of the year award for that one.