Bell housing...

[tumuchNOS]

Can or will any of you build a bellhousing to go from a 4G63 to a drag race style man transmission (Doug Nash etc) out of steel? If so, I would be interested on a price, and I am sure I can think of three others who would probly be interested, several of them on this site now. I saw that bell housing for the r134, but I would rather have something more stout and easier to shift fast. Anyone interested?

[screemin eagle]

HKS makes a sequential dogbox for the RX7 TII.

Kane

yeah but im sure it will only cost you your first born son and you and your fathers left nut since it is HK$.

have you tried g force? they are into import trannies some what

[Old Colt]

I am looking into building some fabricated bellhousings so it is possible.

Do these need SEMA approval for track use?

[Bill Hincher]

If you can break an r 154 with a 4g63 I will buy you a new one.

the problem is, the rear of the engine isnt built to transmit that much power. You only have 4 ,10mm bolts holding the whole unit to the block. Your over loading the unit and taking away the fun of it.

You could build a titainium bellhousing with a hemi trans behind it , but what for? after 600 hp, you would rip the bellhousing off the block. ( I have seen that done, by the way ,on 392 Hemi's)

People loose thier feet/legs when clutchs/flywheels/bellhousings come apart.
Did you know Don Garlits is missing a right foot ?

after 400 hp on the street, its a waste of time, who needs it?

[91turboGSX]

I've personally experienced what the R154 can handle behind a 7M in a Supra and I'd say you wouldn't need a stronger tranny. The synchros go bad after a while of heavy abuse but that's about it.

You can buy them cheap enough.

People loose thier feet/legs when clutchs/flywheels/bellhousings come apart.
Did you know Don Garlits is missing a right foot ?

Speaking of which I need to come up with a scattershield for your bellhousing.

[Bill Hincher]

That why I built the bellhousing so thick, I been waiting for the damn apaptor yet, they should have been here last week.
Its a toss up? should I lighten the bellhousing? should I build larger bolt holes and use studs in the block? what about hydraulic throw out bearing? there is plenty of room in the bell for it.
But a scatter shield and those lower mounts have to be put together , I also want to build in a way to get rid of the heat at the top of the bell, I figure a vent hole without compromising strength.

Sycnro's are a form of a brake, they slow down the spinning gear by pressing against the taper on the back side of the gear, so that the trans can shift smooth

you take those syncro's out and hand lap them with valve grind compound so they seat really well with the taper of the gear and you will never replace them again. works smooth as silk

[DJpowerHaus]

Someone show me a 4G63 block or bellhousing that sheered appart due to too much power. I've never heard of this happening to a 4G63 even with 1000+ hp engines.

[Bill Hincher]

I hope you never do see it DJ, thats my point.

where are these 1000 hp engines you speak of? and how much do they cost?

[Old Colt]

I see no problem with the mounting of the bellhousing to the block. This is one of the lightest loaded areas in the driveline especially where the engine is balanced on it's mounts. Even with 650 Lb of torque a light bellhousing is not that heavily stressed.
Protecting from a clutch or flywheel failure is not a big issue and I prefer that protection built into the chassis where the energy of moving components is easier to absorb. I would not trust a cast housing to contain a flywheel failure no matter how thick you make it. Wrong place for heavy parts.
I have seen an RX7 blow its hood off from portions of the flywheel passing through it. Interesting, no brakes due to the damage and the car only came to a stop since it was on top of the starter that was grinding into the tarmac.

[Bill Hincher]

hey Charlie, did you get your concrete done?

Its an excellent plan to use frame structure to double as safety shield, I agree whole heartedly, I use plate in my drive shaft tunnels to add strength and protection in my hot rods, the racing rules seam to want to make sure of the safetys are in place by making them very obvious.

while we are on the subject, drive shaft loops are in order here front and rear.

But I kinda disagree about how light the bellhousing wall can be, not so much for safety but for the twist involved , the 4G63's original motor mounts are bolts directly in the center of the engine/bellhousing , that does two things, it absorbs tourque from the load on the tires and it balances the engines wieght without putting the transmission in a bind.

When you extend the wieght of the transmission all the way back to the rear of the tailstock, you create a weakness at the engine/bellhousing bolt up. That can not be overstated, you are building in a weakness. That combination can work 100 times and fail once.
I just tore down a 428 FE ford I built ten years ago, I had used front engine mounts to give more clearance for the headers, when I got to the bellhousing bolts, they were finger tight, and I realised that all that tourque was moving the trans little by little until it could loosen those bolts.
I fear the same thing happening without the extra bolt bosses in the bottom of the bellhousing.

[tumuchNOS]

If you can break an r 154 with a 4g63 I will buy you a new one.

the problem is, the rear of the engine isnt built to transmit that much power. You only have 4 ,10mm bolts holding the whole unit to the block. Your over loading the unit and taking away the fun of it.

You could build a titainium bellhousing with a hemi trans behind it , but what for? after 600 hp, you would rip the bellhousing off the block. ( I have seen that done, by the way ,on 392 Hemi's)

People loose thier feet/legs when clutchs/flywheels/bellhousings come apart.
Did you know Don Garlits is missing a right foot ?

after 400 hp on the street, its a waste of time, who needs it?

First of all,I get them (R154's) pretty cheap because I manage a junkyard, second of all, I was looking for a transmission that will shift fast. I am not saying that your bellhousing/trans combo wont handle it, I was just looking to go with what I know works. To be honest I have driven alot of pretty quick domestics, and I have personal experience with seeing what exploding clutches do, and I knew about the big daddy thing when I was a kid. He did'nt limp when I met him in Ohio while we had lunch in the same Summit booth at the pontiac nationals. He did however rewrite what is loud in my book when they took me down to the line to watch him launch his Summit sponsored ride. Brutally powerful, the pressure on your chest is what is amazing. Too bad he lost a blower belt at the 500ft mark.
I have driven a Nash trans, and I think if I could shift my car faster it would easily go 10's on the turbo and who knows what on the unit. So how much is your bell housing and where do I get a drag style unsprung clutch to bolt to the stock D50 flywheel?
What is the fastest car you have tested it in as far as quartermile ET's?
I would be willing to test the limits of your bellhousing/trans combo in a dragrace/street setting if the price is reasonable and you are confident that it will hold up in a 9 (hopefulley) second ride.
Have you designed a scattershield yet?
Oh, and I will need 400+ on the street cause 400 isnt much to be honest. The last street race I had was against a 800 hp 70(?) Camaro with some 454 small block in it. Yes, he did me dirty, but at least I stepped up .

[Bill Hincher]

the bellhousing for the r 154 to the 4G63 narrow block goes for $350.00 plus shipping all my work is posted here on this site
this is my daily driver




turbo man quote
Oh, and I will need 400+ on the street cause 400 isnt much to be honest. The last street race I had was against a 800 hp 70(?) Camaro with some 454 small block in it. Yes, he did me dirty, but at least I stepped up .

Small dawgs should stay on the porch

[Old Colt]

the 4G63's original motor mounts are bolts directly in the center of the engine/bellhousing

Really? All RWD Mitsus including the 4G63 have mount locations mid block. Are you describing the FWD and AWD mounts?

Have you looked at the bellhousings used in the big heavy NASCAR cars? The little 5 pound Magnesium bellhousings.

[Bill Hincher]

as far as I know magnesium is illegal in anything, even aircraft
ask ricky nelson

[Old Colt]

You might want to look at ebay # 280070692897
There are plenty others.

There are plenty of businesses jets with magnesium skins.

And I like my Magnesium frames bicycles, both of them.

[Bill Hincher]

here is the rule book Charlie

69.89.80.231/irwindalespeedway/rules/slm.pdf


OFFICIAL 2006 - 2008 SPECIFICATIONS FOR NASCAR SUPER LATE MODEL
Page 13 of 20
(2) Headers are allowed to be coated.
(3) The header collector pipe cannot be reduced at any point between the primary tubes and the
exhaust pipe.
(b) Exhaust Pipes:
(1) Exhaust pipes from header to the muffler shall be no larger than five (5) inches in diameter.
(2) Exhaust pipes may not reduce in diameter from header to muffler. No device to reduce the
interior diameter of the exhaust pipe will be permitted.
(3) Exhaust pipes must be securely fastened to manifold and attached to frame in a minimum of two
places per pipe.
(4) Exhaust pipes must extend past driver and either turn down or to outside of car. No crossover
pipes are permitted.
(5) Exhaust pipes that have the tail pipe outlet exiting through the car body must be equipped with a
flash shield and no exhaust parts may protrude outside the body.
(6) Exhaust pipes from header to the muffler "two into one" type systems are allowed.
(7) No venturi style exhaust systems.
(8) Merge systems will not be permitted.
(9) Tri-Y header, connectors, or pipes not permitted.
(c) Heat Shields:
(1) A heat shield for the exhaust header may be used but it must be no wider than four (4) inches
and no longer than the cylinder head. A heat shield for the distributor may be used but it must be
no larger than eight (8) inches x ten (10) inches. These are the only acceptable heat shields.
(2) Heat shields for exhaust may only be place over the cylinder head location.
(3) A heat resistant floor mat may be used in the driver’s compartment.
(4) Thermal wrapping of exhaust pipes is allowed from the header connection rearward, however the
header itself may not be wrapped
(5) Heat shields for master and clutch allowed at a bare minimum only.
(d) Mufflers:
(1) Approved muffler or mufflers must be used.
(2) Mufflers must be capable of maintaining a maximum of 90 DECIBALS AT 100 FEET.
(3) The pipe exiting the muffler shall be no larger than six (6) inches.
(4) If a car should exceed the maximum decibel level, at any time, it will be disqualified until an
acceptable noise level is attained.
(5) Mufflers must be in place at all times. Cars losing mufflers or exhaust pipes during an event will
not be allowed to continue.
(6) All exhaust systems and installations must be approved by Irwindale Speedway Tech Officials.
10. DRIVE TRAIN
(a) Clutch:
(1) Heavy duty racing style clutch and pressure plate recommended.
(2) Approved multiple disc clutch are permitted.
(3) Clutch must be located in bellhousing and must be in place at all times.
(4) All cars must have a working clutch.
(5) No direct coupling type units.
(6) Limited to steel discs and pressure plates only.
(7) Minimum diameter of clutch discs must be 5-1/2 inches.
(b) Flywheel:
(1) The flywheel must be made of steel or aluminum.
(2) Reserved.


(c) Bell Housing:
(1) Steel or aluminum bellhousing may be used. No magnesium allowed.
(2) An approved scattershield mandatory.

the rules are written because,
Magnesium is HIGHLY flamable when it reaches a certian temp, DO NOT USE!

[Bill Hincher]

I check IRL also, they have the same rule too, bellhousings must be made of steel or aluminuim

That stuff on E-bay is for older race cars

[Old Colt]

Please do not send rules from a local track that have no relationship to the national rules.
Nascar has many series across the country, the rules at our tracks up here differ from yours and are totally differant than down south.

[tumuchNOS]

the bellhousing for the r 154 to the 4G63 narrow block goes for $350.00 plus shipping all my work is posted here on this site
this is my daily driver




turbo man quote
Oh, and I will need 400+ on the street cause 400 isnt much to be honest. The last street race I had was against a 800 hp 70(?) Camaro with some 454 small block in it. Yes, he did me dirty, but at least I stepped up .

Small dawgs should stay on the porch

Very witty .
So by not answering any of my direct questions other than pricing what are you saying? Maybe your saying this is my world, I know everything, and you should buy my bellhousing based on my un-tested egotistical merrit alone? Its funny how you talk down to potential clients that have money and probably more racing experience than you do. Your refusal to answer direct questions about your product are a little disconcerning. Unless of course you don't have legitimate real world data on the actual limits of your bellhousing in real world drag race testing. I guess in that case its just better for you to look down through your nose at people instead of addressing an actual racer's concerns and providing useful answers.

Cool project BTW, I can appreciate the engineering it took to package that. My last car was 67 dart with a 440 in it. Not as tight, but still hard to work on.

[screemin eagle]

toomuchnos

why not just go with a fwd flywheel and get a custom unsprung puck disc. i got mine from falcon was 180 and it took him 20 min to do while i waited

www.falconauto.com me and my buddy's h ... at success

[91turboGSX]

Very witty .
So by not answering any of my direct questions other than pricing what are you saying? Maybe your saying this is my world, I know everything, and you should buy my bellhousing based on my un-tested egotistical merrit alone? Its funny how you talk down to potential clients that have money and probably more racing experience than you do. Your refusal to answer direct questions about your product are a little disconcerning. Unless of course you don't have legitimate real world data on the actual limits of your bellhousing in real world drag race testing. I guess in that case its just better for you to look down through your nose at people instead of addressing an actual racer's concerns and providing useful answers.

Cool project BTW, I can appreciate the engineering it took to package that. My last car was 67 dart with a 440 in it. Not as tight, but still hard to work on.

As far as Bill's bellhousing, it just was released as far as I know only 2 of them have been released and I got one of them. He only cast 5 of them and I assume they are more or less prototypes that are awaiting testing. He is more than willing to update them and fix where need be. Bill is a guy willing to work with you, not against you. We are all still waiting for the adaptor therefore no real data/testing has logged. I'm gonna stand by Bill for the lower braces as well. It can only help not make it worse. I'm not afraid to run without them but I'd like to have them there for piece of mind.

Old Group A Supras had magnesium oil pans. I know alot of works motocross bikes use alot of magnesium as well for the engine cases and such. Interesting, i'm gonna have to look into this magnesium thing. Is it only really flammable at its melting point or just when it gets to a certain temp?

[tumuchNOS]

toomuchnos

why not just go with a fwd flywheel and get a custom unsprung puck disc. i got mine from falcon was 180 and it took him 20 min to do while i waited

www.falconauto.com me and my buddy's h ... at success

I had ACT make me up an unsprung hub and "proprietary" pressure plate for the D50/mighty max trans using a stock mighty max flywheel to hold 450+ FT LBS. I think after it got here that it did turn out to be a FWD pressure plate and a custom disc. I have never had that clutch slip at all, and other than some slight creeping when staging, have absolutly no complaints. The car is pretty light, so I am sure it contributes to clutch longevity. I can get the pn's if anyone is interested. I really never had a problem with the trans untill I put over 400 hp through it, other than ripping shifters out of them. Doc Holiday attributes this problem the the "Big Indian" driving too aggressivly as he was there to witness it. We drove home in 3rd .

[Bill Hincher]

Very witty .
So by not answering any of my direct questions other than pricing what are you saying? Maybe your saying this is my world, I know everything, and you should buy my bellhousing based on my un-tested egotistical merrit alone? Its funny how you talk down to potential clients that have money and probably more racing experience than you do. Your refusal to answer direct questions about your product are a little disconcerning. Unless of course you don't have legitimate real world data on the actual limits of your bellhousing in real world drag race testing. I guess in that case its just better for you to look down through your nose at people instead of addressing an actual racer's concerns and providing useful answers.

Cool project BTW, I can appreciate the engineering it took to package that. My last car was 67 dart with a 440 in it. Not as tight, but still hard to work on.[/quote]

your right, and I apoligize, I had used a pic of Don Garlits car coming apart to try and emphasize how important good descisions were in making a safe bellhousing, you came back with sounding like he was your brother in law, at that point I was looking 'up' at your nose.
as far as I know, its illegal to have magnesium wheels on the road, that goes back to the late 70's ,nascar just laid a heavy fine of 25,000.00 on Jeff Gordon's team for having a magnesium intake manifold

http://nascar.about.com/library/weekly/aa100200a.htm

I am not certian of the exact nature of the rule, and to a point Charlie is right about local tracks having local rules, but, from all the rules I can find magnesium is not allowed

[4g63mightymax]

I had ACT make me up an unsprung hub and "proprietary" pressure plate for the D50/mighty max trans using a stock mighty max flywheel to hold 450+ FT LBS. I think after it got here that it did turn out to be a FWD pressure plate and a custom disc. I have never had that clutch slip at all, and other than some slight creeping when staging, have absolutly no complaints. The car is pretty light, so I am sure it contributes to clutch longevity. I can get the pn's if anyone is interested. I really never had a problem with the trans untill I put over 400 hp through it, other than ripping shifters out of them. Doc Holiday attributes this problem the the "Big Indian" driving too aggressivly as he was there to witness it. We drove home in 3rd .

I would certainly be interested to know what pressure plate you are using. I am currently running a fwd DSM flywheel, a D50 clutch disc, and a FWD dsm pressure plate. It holds really well, but it is VERY difficult to push down, causing the firewall to flex. If this is changing topic of this post, feel free to just PM me with the part number or make a new post.
Thanks!
-Jeremy

[tumuchNOS]

Very witty .
So by not answering any of my direct questions other than pricing what are you saying? Maybe your saying this is my world, I know everything, and you should buy my bellhousing based on my un-tested egotistical merrit alone? Its funny how you talk down to potential clients that have money and probably more racing experience than you do. Your refusal to answer direct questions about your product are a little disconcerning. Unless of course you don't have legitimate real world data on the actual limits of your bellhousing in real world drag race testing. I guess in that case its just better for you to look down through your nose at people instead of addressing an actual racer's concerns and providing useful answers.

Cool project BTW, I can appreciate the engineering it took to package that. My last car was 67 dart with a 440 in it. Not as tight, but still hard to work on.

your right, and I apoligize, I had used a pic of Don Garlits car coming apart to try and emphasize how important good descisions were in making a safe bellhousing, you came back with sounding like he was your brother in law, at that point I was looking 'up' at your nose.
as far as I know, its illegal to have magnesium wheels on the road, that goes back to the late 70's ,nascar just laid a heavy fine of 25,000.00 on Jeff Gordon's team for having a magnesium intake manifold

http://nascar.about.com/library/weekly/aa100200a.htm

I am not certian of the exact nature of the rule, and to a point Charlie is right about local tracks having local rules, but, from all the rules I can find magnesium is not allowed[/quote]

To be honest I just met the little feller that one time, and he seemed really down to earth for being so famous, thats all. So based on your design how much power will the package (excluding the variable of a bad transmission) take in your opinion at least? Do you plan on designing a scatter shield to augment your bellhousing?

[Bill Hincher]

So based on your design how much power will the package (excluding the variable of a bad transmission) take in your opinion at least? Do you plan on designing a scatter shield to augment your bellhousing?

I dont have an exact answer to that, the bell housing will stand up to what ever you can dish out, but detail attention must be given to the mounting of the bellhousing.

Look at it this way, the bellhousing/transmision conection has nine , 10mm bolts attaching them.
The engine/bellhousing have four 10mm bolts. seems kinda obvious to me that I needed to add two more lower bosses to absorb the twist.
well, I sent a bellhousing to jeff ball in Colorado and Corey ( 91turboGSX ) for them to look at, Corey kinda knows what the trans will take, and I am waiting for some adaptor to send them, but I figure if I get the housing in those two guys hands , we can all work together to build a really nice unit without a ton of money.
I was hoping to hear back from them about a combination motor mount/ bellhousing support for the two lower bosses, or if we should make lower bellhousing braces just for twist in the system. I also wonder about the size of the clamping bolts at the engine/bellhousing connection, should I build in 12mm bolts instead of ten? should we use studs instead of bolts?
should I make the housing thinner? I need to build in a way to get rid of the heat in the clutch, but where should I place the vent? i hate to just aim the hot air out of the bell and dump it on the firewall
I am all about listening at this point, I should have the plates I need this week, I will machine them out and get them to Jeff and Corey as soon as I can and then , from what they say, I will be making adjustments to the next casting until I get it right. I want to see what Corey comes up with for scattershield, just a drawing to see how he wants it.
Then we are gonna work on intake/cam design/ exhaust header combination, so you guys can save the power booster in your brake system.
But on my dyno charts, as far as power about 525hp is the limit on the 4G63 and keep it streetable.
the r 154 is well capable of handling that kinda hp.

OHHHHHH and by the way, eric has one of my W-55 bellhousings in a BMW and his only problem was the clutch moved too far too easy, he had to lower his cltuch pedal in the cabin to gain ' feel' in his heavy duty clutch.
no flex in the firewall and no binding

[Robert Venable]

Not trying to get off topic, but I noticed some mention of magnesium in this thread and a mention of streetable 4G63 power.

I used to work with an admin. for what is now called DSMStyle.com, he had a full weight 11.30 second AWD Eclipse. We est. he was putting out close to well above 550 hp(11.30s launching rather mildly, and he was having problems running a too small turbo- he's got that fixed as of this christmas tho). He drove this car to work very often and it was VERY streetable with only a slight lope at idle.

And on the Mag. part, BMW's New generation of 6 cyl. engines are Mag. blocked engines. Biggest problem I see so far with them is the fact that they are highly corrosive if not properly worked on (leave coolant in a hole over night and you will no longer have threads to tighten anything down).

[Bill Hincher]

If you look at my pics of bellhousings you will notice I have made 1 bellhousing that accepts two transmission, it will either accept the W/55-58 series trans or , with a 1 1/4 spacer and drilled. it accepts the r 154
I origanaly built the w-55 series for the rock crawlers in California using a Toyota 4 wheel drive line, so then I was asked to make one for the r 154 for the drifters

the trans surface of the bellhousing I have now is purposely made to accept any trans I want, I cast these bellhousings one at a time, so its no problem to run one of a kind off, but I would need EXACT drawings to do it,

The trans input shaft can be from 6 1/4" long and longer, the clutch pivot ball would be in the stock Mits location. If the input shaft is long enough , we can drill any bolt pattern you want to accept that trans , the limiting factors will be the throw out bearing collar and the proper throw out bearing. I will measure the facing at the back of my housing and make it public, if you will measure your trans bolt pattern and see if we can come up with a good comprimise

Lets light this candle!

[tumuchNOS]

If you look at my pics of bellhousings you will notice I have made 1 bellhousing that accepts two transmission, it will either accept the W/55-58 series trans or , with a 1 1/4 spacer and drilled. it accepts the r 154
I origanaly built the w-55 series for the rock crawlers in California using a Toyota 4 wheel drive line, so then I was asked to make one for the r 154 for the drifters

the trans surface of the bellhousing I have now is purposely made to accept any trans I want, I cast these bellhousings one at a time, so its no problem to run one of a kind off, but I would need EXACT drawings to do it,

The trans input shaft can be from 6 1/4" long and longer, the clutch pivot ball would be in the stock Mits location. If the input shaft is long enough , we can drill any bolt pattern you want to accept that trans , the limiting factors will be the throw out bearing collar and the proper throw out bearing. I will measure the facing at the back of my housing and make it public, if you will measure your trans bolt pattern and see if we can come up with a good comprimise

Lets light this candle!

I will do my best to come up with some specs for the two transmissions I am considering, and we will go from there. Maybe if Doc has a few min he can locate the Nash specs because he is very interested in going that way as well. Otherwise I will come up with them sometime this week hopfully.

[Bill Hincher]

[Bill Hincher]

we can use this adaptorto mount any trans you want on the $G63 as long as you have a clutch disc and the input shaft is longe enough



Wanna buy your old Dart back? I got one

[tumuchNOS]

My old one was a 67 with a 440 and some nitrous. I just might buy it back after I buy my house. A friend of mine built a pretty fast 65 cuda with a SBM and an 8-71 on it. I have always dug A bodies, after I went through the whole buying 8 chargers/superbees. If I could just have the 68 charger R/T 440/4 speed car back, I would'nt cut the hood this time for a tunnel ram, I swear .

[Bill Hincher]

'69 midnight blue....... super bee white stripe wrapped around the back 1/4 and trunk lid ............ 440 R/T with torque flite, that would be my pick. Creedence kickin out " Suzia Q', Hendricks, excused and kissin the sky and Morrison getting his fire lit..........

hot summer nights that would last a lifetime

and .35 cent a gallon gas!

don't get no better than that

[peregrine]

'69 midnight blue....... super bee white stripe wrapped around the back 1/4 and trunk lid ............ 440 R/T with torque flite, that would be my pick. Creedence kickin out " Suzia Q', Hendricks, excused and kissin the sky and Morrison getting his fire lit..........

hot summer nights that would last a lifetime

and .35 cent a gallon gas!

don't get no better than that

are you guys gonna touch pee-pees?

[Bill Hincher]

IMLMAO!

[tumuchNOS]

'69 midnight blue....... super bee white stripe wrapped around the back 1/4 and trunk lid ............ 440 R/T with torque flite, that would be my pick. Creedence kickin out " Suzia Q', Hendricks, excused and kissin the sky and Morrison getting his fire lit..........

hot summer nights that would last a lifetime

and .35 cent a gallon gas!

don't get no better than that

are you guys gonna touch pee-pees?

Not unless I get a real nice dinner first.

[Bill Hincher]