EX lancer N/A swap.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:28 am

Hi all, this is my ongoing project, it's a 1982 lancer EX, originally a 1600 sohc carby automatic, i ditched that lump and dumped a high compression DOHC 4g63 from a 1990 VXS galant. It has Starion front struts and brakes, lengthened bottom arms for neg camber, 5 speed gearbox from a jap import sigma/galant.

Shell has been stripped of all sound deadening, interior gutted, ready to go away for a cage in the next 2 or 3 weeks.

Firewall has been BFH'd to fit CAS and waterneck, has around 4-5mm clearance to firewall and around 50mm between radiator and cam gears. Water neck is made using an adaptor bolted to the stock location with a datsun 200b thermostat housing ( the 2 holes in it almost line up with 2 of the 4G63 ones) from here a 90 rubber hose goes around underneath the inlet manifold and into the stock thermostat housing remote mounted ( no thermostat in it, but i need it for the temp sensors)

Currently running stock computer, but plan to upgrade to stand alone with ITB's and extensive headwork.

Anyway, enough blabbing, pictures...

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:42 am

well done! neat and well thought out !

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:12 am

Thanks, that means a lot coming from someone of your technical knowledge.

Some more shots showing the front end and neg camber, also my modified sump.

Have been playing around with maxima throttles, have a set of 2 that i think i can couple together to get my 4 throats, just need to work out how to go about making a nice flowing manifold for them.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:16 am

The pics don't show it but i had to put an air bleed in the thermo housing off the block, because it heads down, i had some issues with air pockets and steam, boiled it whilst running up to temp and though i had cooked the gasket, luckily not, but put a new gasket in anyway, good chance to check out the piston and bore condiiton, and get my exhaust cam timing 180 degrees out

confounded me for a good few minutes that one, couldn't work out where all my compression had gone....

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:21 am

at the risk of being complicated, I would offer this idea about throttle bodies, if you ever intend to use a camshaft design that would increase duratation, consideration should be given to velocity of air flow in the intake tract, it should not drop below 300 ft per second.In order to avoid turbo lag or hesitation on acceleration, the air speed should be drawn through the smaller venturi first and then open to the large throttle after air flow speed has been established in the intake tract. This should be mounted alone at the opening of the air plentium. and this would allow options to your fuel injection system because you could arrainge new inputs to your computer to allow smooth horsepower increases

Description:
You are looking at an Audi 5000 throttle body. This oversized throttle body increases throttle response and horsepower. Please note this item is the exact same thing as the overly priced Neuspeed throttle body you see advertised from time to time.

The early VW A1 water-cooled cars (Rabbit, Scirocco, Jetta, Cabriolet, GTI) came with a smaller (28/44mm) throttle body that restricted air flow (see chart)

Throttle Body Specifications:

Factory A1 TB: Primary: 28mm
Secondary: 44mm

Airflow MAX area: ~2135sq mm(3.3sq in)
Audi 5000 TB: Primary: 28mm
Secondary: 52mm

Airflow MAX area: ~2738sq mm(4.2sq in)
Volumetric Increase: ~30%

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:07 pm

I think i can understand what you are saying, I will not be using ITB's until some fairly substantial cam and head work has been completed, probably an increase in static CR as well. I should point out that i intend (for the time being) to stay naturally aspirated. Also that the car is being built as a gravel rally car, whereby part throttle applications are not as critical as in a road car, and also all out power is not what i need either, therefore to get the torque that i would really like i am going to require long narrow runners, and possibly smaller throttles than the maxima ones i have here. At the end of the day i have all but resigned myself to the fact that i am probably going to have to spend some fairly decent money to get a set of throttles thatwill suit the motor a little bit better than what i currently have, however being that these were dirt cheap and i was bored, and its fun, i'm going to try and get these to a working state, most likely with a stock manifold's runners and some pretty ugly looking addititions.

All my current knowledge of automobiles is self taught, this to me is just another little experiment and hopefully a chance to learn a bit more.

Now all i need to do is teach myself to TIG aluminium and convince the boss to buy another welder.

Just reread the first paragraph regarding airspeed , this i hope to address at least to a certain extent, with a ram effect, whereby the velocity stacks will be sealed into a very large channel that meets with the underside of the bonnet that will have either a naca type duct leading into it from the top surface of the bonnet or a larger scoop coming in from the front bumper of the car. Before i decide on this however i need to work out the high and low pressure zones around the bodywork, so that i neither choke nor starve the air flow to the throttles. Looks liek i need to go driving with some little bits of string and a video camera to record their movements.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:35 pm

Awesome swap. Wish we had more old Mitsus like that around here.

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:49 am

Very nice swap going there, so many guys over your way get stuck with the SOHC engines, glad to see you went for the DOHC.

You may want to take a look at some of the later Suzuki throttle bodies from say a 2004 or newer GSXR1000. They will be about a 52 mm bore and will need just a small amount of change to the spacing.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:03 pm

52 is probably going to be a little over throttled for the revs the motor will likely pull, as Bill has reiterated the critical thing to keep up is airspeed, the bigger the throttle the less 'urgency' the air has to get through the hole.

I have been thinking that toyota 20v throttles would be the best bet as they are about 44 and evenly spaced with decent adjustable throttle linkages etc. Also bike thottles of that age over here are mega expensive. I could just about buy a set of aftermarket roller barrell's or side throttles for the same money.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:32 pm

Looks great! But why not go with the turbo motor?

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:49 pm

If you are working with a 1990 2 liter head you will find 52 to be the proper diameter. If you go to a head with smaller ports from a smaller or later engine then I would recommend smaller throttles.
The Audi throttles Bill has shown have no value in a ITB application since you need all the throttles the same size.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:56 pm

Stayed N/A due to the weight of the vehicle and its intended use, it is a gravel rally car, and should weigh in at under 1000kg when the cage is completed, traditionally rwd turbo rally cars are pretty lairy beasts, and not necessarily the fastest, due to the nature of the torque curve produced, they spend a lot of time wheelspinning. Don't get me wrong i intend to do a fair bit of that too, but i want to have instant torque should i get into trouble rather than wait for a turbo to spool up. I know i could combat most of the lag by running antilag and a smaller turbo, but i would not be able to stop myself from putting a monster turbo on and running stupid boost

I have a boost addiction.

My last turbo toy ( before the a4 audi i currently have) was a t3'd lancia delta HF, FWD 1600 dohc boosting around 22psi. I sold it before i managed to blow it up.

Have also had a gen 1 mazda 323 (the generation before the 4wd dohc turbo's) with an 1800 dohc N/A motor in it, and i have to say that i am a big fan of big N/A motor and little car...

I guess i could relatively easily convert to a turbo motor should i feel the need, but i think if i can get over 200 hp with the N/A then that should be ample..

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:03 pm

When you do get around to doing the cylinder head you should consider the one from the 1800, we only got them in Hyundias over here. it has a bit smaller intake ports but also has smaller combustion chambers to up your compression a bit more.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:08 pm

Old Colt wrote:If you are working with a 1990 2 liter head you will find 52 to be the proper diameter. If you go to a head with smaller ports from a smaller or later engine then I would recommend smaller throttles.
The Audi throttles Bill has shown have no value in a ITB application since you need all the throttles the same size.

You are right, 52mm will give me maximum air flow through the head, and thus highest power, however, i am working on a smaller throttle dimension in order to create a small amount of restriction and keep air speed up, thus moving the torque curve lower down the rev range, because it's a gravel rally car , a lot of its time is spent in the mid range of the rev band and not so much at the top end. For the same reason i will be needing to fit some exceptionally long intake runners, by my reckoning somewhere between 6" and 8" between the back of the valve and the throttle, and around 3" between the throttle plate and the raduis of the venturi.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:14 pm

Old Colt wrote:When you do get around to doing the cylinder head you should consider the one from the 1800, we only got them in Hyundias over here. it has a bit smaller intake ports but also has smaller combustion chambers to up your compression a bit more.

Would that be the 4g93 or 4g37? We got the 93 in late model lancers, both N/A and turbo, and got the 37 in early model galants N/A only, and both dohc.

I see your in vermont, hehe, i watched super troopers last night, for the 50000th time. awesome movie

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:19 pm

No both of those are different series of engine, 4G67 I believe.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:32 pm

Intereesting, i had not heard of the high comp head before, do you have any indicative figures of how much smaller it is or possible static CR when swapped to a 63?

I have amg spec pistons to go into the motor, they give a static CR of 10.4ish to 1 with a stock 63 head.

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:48 pm

I do not have a G67 head here, I am looking for one for one of my NA swaps. I am doing one of my 72 Galants.
The 4G61 head has much smaller intakes and is a very good head for the 2 litre but it's combustion chamber is the same as what you have.
I have not seen the head volumes in print for the G67 but I expect you would want to get up around 12:1 for what you are doing. At 10:1 these still run well on our 87 Octane fuel.

I am considering using one of my EVO 3 engines and changing pistons to get the compression up for NA use.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:00 pm

Found some info on a forum:

4g63= 47cc
4g67= 43cc
4g61= 41-43cc

Don't know the accuracy of these figures, but according to where i found the data the g67 head increases cr by about .4

So with the AMG pistons and the g67 head i'd see around 10.8-1 without any machining.
http://buschurforums.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12604

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:19 pm

The 1600 head might not be bad either, it is an easy one to find over here and I know of two people running it on 2 litres.
So much for the info I had of it's chamber being large but I would trust the numbers you came up with.

The ports on the 61 head are both narrower and shorter height wise.
The 67 head is for the most part shorter with similar width to the 63 head.

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:32 am

The large ports that make the early G63 an awsome turbo engine are what make it a moderate NA setup. The ports let you push 500+ Hp, Not what a 200Hp NA engine wants. Look at the power out of the trird gen engines such as the late EVO stuff, they are smaller ports but are raised up a bit. Still make big power.
Most all of the G63 ports have a similar throat size, the narrow area where the port divides, the big change is before that in the runner size of the intake. This is where a gain can be made for a NA engine.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 1:44 am

Pillars all fixed, looks a little huckery but it'll do the job.

Gave my altered sump a coat of paint and bolted it up, 2mm clearance to the crossmember, good thing i have nice hard engine mounts.

This allowed me to bolt my sump guard up, after a few alterations to allow the bottom arms to go to full droop, and cut outs for the caster arm nuts so adjustments can be made without removing the sump guard. Still gotta make a guard for the gearbox, that'll attach to the back of the sump guard, and bolt up to the gearbox crossmember, possibly onto the driveshaft loop too.

Had this little sucker made up to block off the oil filter, in order to connect the remote oil filter. Just need to have an o'ring groove machined in it to ensure a good seal. Will go on tomorrow along with my oil cooler port filter housing (thanks spooner) Then all i'll need is a couple of oil hoses, tricky part is finding fittings to suit a mitsi (m16x1.5)

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 3:23 am

Got some primer squirted at it today, got through half a pot before i realized i had set the spray pattern wrong, was wondering why i wasn't getting much coverage. DOH.

All fixed now, rubbed it down ready for a top coat of refrigerator white.

Haven't done the guards or bonnet yet, debating whether i need to weld some flares on and i also am trying to find a bonnet in better condition than the one i currently have. Pics when it's all white.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:48 pm

Update time.

Still havent finished painting, had an issue with the paint i was using, has gone on looking like sandpaper, probably due to my noobness with a spray gun, oh well just means a lot of rubbing back.

Have finished the oil cooler and associated components, new catch tank, remote filter, large oil cooler and filter block off plate. Looks pretty sweet, pics next time i get down to the lockup.

Have purchased (nearly stole them they were so cheap) a set of toyota 20v silvertop throttles for my quad throttle set up, am in the process of putting my new found Tig welding skills to work on a manifold to fit them. Hoping to get runner lengths of near on 200mm from butterfly to valves with approx 75-100mm from velocity stack lip to butterfly should give me peak torque somwhere around 4-5k rpm (i hope)

Facing a dilema with the manifold i am creating, do i match it to the stock 63 port size and shape or do i source a 67 or 61 head (which seem to all be the same size here) Maybe due to all being JDM motors i dunno.
I had thoughts of getting a 67 head (for the smaller combustion chamber) and reshaping and sizing the ports with some form of epoxy filler into a more oval sort of shape rather than the squashed rectangular shape they are now, would make for better transition through the inlet tract and should aid gas velocity too (by my non-expert reckoning anyway)

Has anyone ever reduced or reshaped ports in this manner? with any sort of success?

Anyway enough rambling for now, will post some piccys soon.

Cheers Dan

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Mon May 14, 2007 7:40 am

Hi Dan,

I'm also in NZ. I pulled the head off a 4g61 last week. The port inlet port size is 50mm by 31.5mm with a corner fillet radius of around 14mm. The roof chamber size of the 4g61 is definitely smaller than the 4g63 head as well, however, the valves are the same between the two heads. There is a recon 4g61 head on trademe (NZ copy of ebay for the US readers) at the moment.

With quads you will still want to change the port entry slightly as the current design for both 4g61 and 4g63 has the flow approaching the port with an upward angle. With quads you'll want the flow to approach at right angles to the port or from above the port.

I hope the info helps.

Regards,

Dave

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon May 14, 2007 5:27 pm

Any chance of getting a picture comparing the combustion chambers? Is it a chance that its the same casting just milled down further?

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Mon May 14, 2007 5:48 pm

On a second look the only difference in the combustion chamber is the bore size. Chamber depth is the same between heads as is the distance between the quench areas. There is more shrouding of the inlet valves in the 4g61 than the 4g63.

4g61 combustion chamber

4g63 combustion chamber

4g61 inlet port

4g63 inlet port

4g61 exhaust port

4g63 exhaust port

Regards,

Dave

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:07 pm

Interesting,
By my claculations the area of the intake ports of both heads are as follows:
4g63 (non turbo, but i'm sure it is the same for turbo) 21.67cm2
4g61 (going off dwlee's measurement) 14.06cm2

About 30%smaller, and almost the same area as the throat of 4age silvertop throttles 14.5cm2.

As a point of note, do you know what version 4g61 the head you measured was? As i read there are 2 and earlier one with a bore of about 3.03 and a later one with a bore closer t0 3.3" ( i think these numbers are correct, i can't quite remember)

Cheers,
Dan

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:29 pm

Hi Dan,

The engine is a non-turbo 4g61 with a bore size of approximately 82.3mm or 3.24". I'm not sure what year the engine is however

. I see you asked the guy selling the head on trademe, get him to measure the bore size of the combustion chamber and the inlet port width.

I'm on the lookout for some blacktop throttles so that there is a little more taper in the manifold, but silvertops should be just as good.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:04 pm

For what i am doing the silvertops should be ample, ultimate goal with the throttles is to get a good solid throttle response in maid range, and also to bring the torque peak lower in the rev range, thus the need to keep gas velocity up in the inlet.

Are you building an N/A motor? what sort of spec are you building it to?

Cheers Dan

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Wed May 16, 2007 5:59 am

Hi Dan,

I'm thinking of putting a N/A motor into a 75 colt GTO. Specs are a little fluid at the moment. Initially I am/was thinking of a pretty standard 4g63 bottom end, but with AMG spec pistons and using the standard 4g63 head etc with the AMG computer that I have. The other option I am considering is using the 61 head with bigger cams and using quads with a custom computer. I'm just collecting parts at the moment and looking at different ideas.

Dave

ps that head on trademe looks the same as the one I have.

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Wed May 16, 2007 3:28 pm

dwlee wrote:Hi Dan,

I'm thinking of putting a N/A motor into a 75 colt GTO. Specs are a little fluid at the moment. Initially I am/was thinking of a pretty standard 4g63 bottom end, but with AMG spec pistons and using the standard 4g63 head etc with the AMG computer that I have. The other option I am considering is using the 61 head with bigger cams and using quads with a custom computer. I'm just collecting parts at the moment and looking at different ideas.

Dave

ps that head on trademe looks the same as the one I have.

youll never be as happy as you would if you put a stock turbo motor in there. all that work to make a decent ride with a N/A motor when a turbo would make you smile every time you drove it.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed May 16, 2007 4:31 pm

peregrine wrote:
dwlee wrote:Hi Dan,

I'm thinking of putting a N/A motor into a 75 colt GTO. Specs are a little fluid at the moment. Initially I am/was thinking of a pretty standard 4g63 bottom end, but with AMG spec pistons and using the standard 4g63 head etc with the AMG computer that I have. The other option I am considering is using the 61 head with bigger cams and using quads with a custom computer. I'm just collecting parts at the moment and looking at different ideas.

Dave

ps that head on trademe looks the same as the one I have.
youll never be as happy as you would if you put a stock turbo motor in there. all that work to make a decent ride with a N/A motor when a turbo would make you smile every time you drove it.

I get my turbo kicks elsewhere, Gp A evo 5 with 300hp ATW, anti lag and launch control

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Wed May 16, 2007 6:10 pm

isnowi wrote:
peregrine wrote:
dwlee wrote:Hi Dan,

I'm thinking of putting a N/A motor into a 75 colt GTO. Specs are a little fluid at the moment. Initially I am/was thinking of a pretty standard 4g63 bottom end, but with AMG spec pistons and using the standard 4g63 head etc with the AMG computer that I have. The other option I am considering is using the 61 head with bigger cams and using quads with a custom computer. I'm just collecting parts at the moment and looking at different ideas.

Dave

ps that head on trademe looks the same as the one I have.
youll never be as happy as you would if you put a stock turbo motor in there. all that work to make a decent ride with a N/A motor when a turbo would make you smile every time you drove it.
I get my turbo kicks elsewhere, Gp A evo 5 with 300hp ATW, anti lag and launch control

now imagine that in a 2000 lb. car

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed May 16, 2007 9:00 pm

Yeah, i get what you're saying, but add to the equation the 'state of the ark' steering and suspension currently in employ and things get a bit nasty and hairy, that being said race cars are never finished and are in a constant state of improvement, who knows once some handling things are sorted it may just get whacked with the turbo stick....

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:55 am

Latest project:

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:28 pm

What are the itb's off of?

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:27 pm

They are toyoda 4age throttles 43mm, the runners are a linear taper from the throttle diameter to a nominal size aproximately halfway between that of a 4g63's ports and that of a 4g61's port, that way it should be quite a smooth linear run from the throttle to the valves. The runners allow for approximately 175mm between the throttle plates and the back of the valves (not ideal, but still a reasonable length)

kid lancer 7 · Post by **kid lancer 7** » Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:35 am

ohh mann thats some sick stuff you've got going there.. good to see you're working on the old school lancer. as i am doing about the same to the 2003 lancer!!

man i am glad to find this forum (this is my 1st post!)

4WDGTI · Post by **4WDGTI** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:24 am

Hi, very nice project! I am from Ukraine and now buiding A172 lancer N/A 4g63 too, but for drift! I see you used km119 transmission(non hydraulic). Will this tranny keep about 160-180 h.p. ? What axle will you use in your project?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:53 am

Did you find some threaded fittings for your oil filter relocation? I had to use AN fittings for my oil cooler and they do make a nice adapter fitting. I got mine from Summit Racing, but any AN supplier should be able to get them to you. Just ask for the metric (16mm) to -6 AN fitting and it should work out fine. Make sure to use some thread sealer, as the metric fitting is not tapered and may leak under the high pressure the oil pump can put out.

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:37 pm

Wow long time since i was here, I did solve the oil cooler fittings by using banjo bolts and hard lines swaged to pushfit connectors. It's all in and looking good, motor is running again, but not much else in the way of progress for over 12 months now, been too busy working on houses etc.

Will be attacking some other bits. with renewed vigour. New headers, and probably a Megasquirt.

Update with piccys to follow.