difference in intakes (pics)

[IDriftNaked]

hey guys, i just wanted to post this to help people doing the swap to understand the differences of intakes out there for the dohc 2.0 and even 2.4

anyway heres some pics i took for you guys

the 1st intake is a metal intake that i got from ebay that failed to fit so i had to cut a section of the back and hopefully get a plate welded on it for now



2nd intake is a jdm cyclone intake, this intake looks really nice but i found it to be too bulky especially for the gear box. this would work if you did dj's 240 rack and pinion setup or if you trimmed the hell out of the bottum of both middle runners

this is how the cyclone hits on the gear box nipple and lines


3rd is a hyundai sonata intake that i think would work great if you chopped off the flange and got a 1st gen dohc flange welded in its place. Believe it or not, as long and tall as this intake is, it actually clears everything quite nice.
front view

its height clears all master cylinder components

as you can see the sonota intake clears the booster, no problem!

heres the down below, looks like everything is clutter free!

heres the downfall on this intake, the flange! this was meant to have the injectors mount on the intake rather than the head itself. on another note, the egr valve port is on the opposite side of the sonata flange thats closer to our cam gears which leaves our egr port on the 1st gen head exposed... NO GOOD!


4th is the famous evo 8 intake that everyone thinks will work with no mods. sorry to burst your bubble, but this intake would require chopping of the flange and welding a 1st gen dohc flange just like the sonata intake. another down fall with this intake, is that the booster vac hose port hits the master cylinder. but im pretty sure you can solve this problem by threading a fitting that would point at a 90 degree angle in place of the straight port.
other than all the cons, this intake is very low profile and looks pretty damn clean if it was fabbed to work.

heres a view of the evo intake

this is a shot of how the vac port hits the master cyl.

this is how nicely the evo intake clears the booster

no hitting of anything on the bottum

just like the sonata, the evo intake mounts the injectors on the intake and not directly on the head itself


Last but not least, is the most common for the 4g swap, the 1st gen dohc intake



i remind everyone that this was on a starion so all other cars dont apply to the pros and cons that i listed above except for the sonata and evo base flanges.

i hope this has helped you guys understand a little more about these intakes

David

[IDriftNaked]

i aslo forgot to mention that the runners on the sonata and evo intakes are smaller than the ports on the 1st gen dohc intakes, therefore theres about a hair of a gap exposed on the head side

this is how small the runners ports are on the evo and sonata intake. also notice the egr port that i talked about before (opposite)


heres the bigger runner ports on the 1st gen intake

[Bill Hincher]

how long are the intake runners on the EVO intake manifold compared to the OEM first gen intake?
excellent post David >;o)

[IDriftNaked]

heres an old picture that i had on another post. i believe its only about 1/4 of an inch difference, the evo being the shorter of the two at 7 3/4 inches and the 1st gen at 8 inches.

dsm


evo

[Bill Hincher]

no, the runners are about 13 inches on the stock OEM intake, take the tape measure and follow the contour of the inlet runner from the manifold flange and the plenum and it will be a lot longer

[IDriftNaked]

o ok gotcha, ill run out and measure right now

[IDriftNaked]

here you go bill

[Bill Hincher]

WOW! thats subsantianly shorter!

that by itself is a statement of where the engineers went for more power, now if we can find the OEM cam profiles and compression ratio and match that to the turbo size, it will give the base numbers required to build EVO performance from the earlier 4g63 turbo's

the engineers went to a shorter inlet manifold and created torque curve some where else, whether that is put in by raising compression or a smaller turbo or a shorter cam duration can be found by comparing spec's from the manufacturers manuals

[Bill Hincher]

HEY SMOG! glad to see you back

hey! your memory dont go past your last beer!

[IDriftNaked]

thanks smog for the important tip. i was bummed when i saw that the cyclone was going to be way too much work to fit properly on the starquests, but now that you say the numbers are worse than the stocker, it made me feel better lol. o well. im stoked about what bill has planned for me though on the evo intake!
thanks bill

[Bill Hincher]

this EVO intake is just perfect for the RWD conversion


as you can see the outlet of the intake is too low and much smaller then the 4g63 original there is no taper in the original 4g63 intake but the runners are 13 inches long, the EVO runners are only 8 inches long but have a taper built in to speed up the air

the bolt pattern on the flange is the same

[jeffball610]

So what did you have in mind for an intake Bill? The EVO is definitely a better design. I doubt there is a way to combine the two without making a new custom unit. The EVO does have the injetor holes in the intake. That might come in handy for those guys running big HP motors and needing two sets of injectors or maybe Meth or water injection.

If you do make a custom unit, I think being compact would be the biggest key design point. Most of us are running 1G heads and they are easy to get a hold of. I don't know if it's possible to make a good unit that could bolt to both 1G and 2D heads, but that would be a plus. The EVO guys can wait to get a unit for themselves. Some other design features might be to save enough space for an intake side mounted alternator, bolt holes to mount the coil pack and resistor and perhaps a fuel pressure regulator too.

Just some thoughts and it might be out of context if you're just modifying the EVO manifold, but thought I would throw it out there.

[DoubleJ]

I actually thought it would be interesting to run 2 sets of stock DSM (1G - 2G) 450cc Injectors with the evo manifold. just split the signal for 2 injectors. lol You would basically in theory be running as if you had 900cc.

That was some crazy thought I had the other day. It would be great if you had AEM engine management to control both sets.

Anybody think that splitting the signal would work? haha

Edit: In addition could you split the signal from the resistor box?

[slowquest]

I also had an EVO intake I was trying out. I don't see how you could get the head side injectors in there with the EVO manifold....not enough room.

[Bill Hincher]

two injectors per intake runner will be mandatory when I get done

you remeber all the math I laid out about injector sizing and electronic management? its still in the electrical section,
http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=426
but any way, the way we can build a car to be hi performance AND meet emisions is by running the box stock ECU set up with a second injector and a secondary ( progessive) air inlet
with two injectors , you can run all day long legal and when you kick in the second set of injectors you can make it fly

I just gotta get ahead of the bellhousing work

[IDriftNaked]

man am i excited about this!!
i cleaned those intakes out as much as i could for you bill, i just couldnt really get into the dsm intake runner that great with the brush.

so you say it would have to be a 2 injector per runner setup?? why is that?

[Bill Hincher]

it would be just like adding a 4 barrel carburater ( back before dirt) it would be just like having a secondary fuel system, it answers all the problems to add an injector, because you dont need to tamper with the emisions with the primary injectors, your completely legal until you boost in the secondary

[Bill Hincher]

So what did you have in mind for an intake Bill? The EVO is definitely a better design. I doubt there is a way to combine the two without making a new custom unit. The EVO does have the injetor holes in the intake. That might come in handy for those guys running big HP motors and needing two sets of injectors or maybe Meth or water injection.

If you do make a custom unit, I think being compact would be the biggest key design point. Most of us are running 1G heads and they are easy to get a hold of. I don't know if it's possible to make a good unit that could bolt to both 1G and 2D heads, but that would be a plus. The EVO guys can wait to get a unit for themselves. Some other design features might be to save enough space for an intake side mounted alternator, bolt holes to mount the coil pack and resistor and perhaps a fuel pressure regulator too.

Just some thoughts and it might be out of context if you're just modifying the EVO manifold, but thought I would throw it out there.

The EVO intake taper is fairly large, the problem with the stock EVO unit is not the injector set up, that will be moved back to the cylinder head, the problem is air ' eddys' that will occur at the outlet of the EVO intake runner where the larger inlet of the cylinder head is. Because its a'dry' intake, it should be ok, the air is not mixed with fuel until its in the head, but a real good unit would provide the same percentage of taper with a matched outlet size to the cylinder head , which would mean larger inlets in the intake runners. I dont think the plenum is large enough either, I would make that a little bigger, the original EVO unit must be sized to the turbo because you dont want to create too big of an air resivour in the intake air chamber that would take too long for the turbo to pack with air

[jeffball610]

Maybe some of this is beyond me, but the DSM ECU is really simple. WE don't 'have' to run a second set of injectors. DSMLink and the like take care of the injector dead (or dwell) time and you can run very large injectors and lumpy cams with a smooth idle. I figured the second set of injectors would be for racing purposes when you really crank the boost. Maybe run some 680+cc injectors as primaries and some smaller 450cc (their cheap) injectors for extra boost or run meth or water through them for added cooling and power. Kinda like running N20 but safer and ECU controlled.

I think the first step is to just come up with a design and post it here and on other sites to see what input people have. It would also be benificial to run a cast manifold for longevity. A design like the Forester intake would be nice since the plenum can be flipped for RWD or OE setups.

Bill once you get those bellhousings sorted, I'd love to see what you come up with. Any other fabricators on here want to put some ideas down?

[DoubleJ]

Maybe some of this is beyond me, but the DSM ECU is really simple. WE don't 'have' to run a second set of injectors. DSMLink and the like take care of the injector dead (or dwell) time and you can run very large injectors and lumpy cams with a smooth idle. I figured the second set of injectors would be for racing purposes when you really crank the boost. Maybe run some 680+cc injectors as primaries and some smaller 450cc (their cheap) injectors for extra boost or run meth or water through them for added cooling and power. Kinda like running N20 but safer and ECU controlled.

I think the first step is to just come up with a design and post it here and on other sites to see what input people have. It would also be benificial to run a cast manifold for longevity. A design like the Forester intake would be nice since the plenum can be flipped for RWD or OE setups.

Thats what people do with AEM. Its the "perfect" setup. You wouldnt have to guzzle gas until you smash the throttle.

I found a thread tho that talks about a second set of injectors with the stock ECU. The dude really gets flamed, but his point and idea is valid. They argue that you should just buy 1 set of injectors instead of running 2 sets. He was also thinking about adding a 5th injector to the throttle body instead. They say the stock ECU's injector banks cannot handle the resistance? of 2 injectors.:

http://www.dsmtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193940

[Bill Hincher]

[quote="jeffball610"]

I think the first step is to just come up with a design and post it here and on other sites to see what input people have.


let the other sites watch ' US ' Jeff

the secondary injector is simple and inexpensive, I will show you what I mean

[S0LJAH]

I figure I will toss this out. THe cyclone intake doesnt flow very good. There was a flow test article on a dsm board a long time ago testing flow numbers. Seems like the 6inch tapered runners flowed best. The cyclone flowed worse than the stock one if I remember right. But better for the low end.

i was under the impression in that test the cyclone flowed no worse than than the non butterlfy intake
slightly less up top but u lose a massive chunk of low/mid range torque
u guys are the only people in the world that didnt get the cyclone manifolds as stock
everyone thinks it performs better up top but thats cos u lose so much midrange that when it comes on song it feels much better but isnt actually

this is going from what ive been told about the test, never seen the link but very keen to see it if i can find it

[Bill Hincher]

this can not be done, so I just went ahead and did it anyway

the EVO intake was mismatched to the 4G63 so I had to place a new flange on the intake

I made my own fixture to hold the work and aliagn the new flange once the old one was removed

because the EVO ports were smaller, I decided to take advantage of that and remove the old flange from around the narrow ports to fit within the original 4G63 flange

I cleaned up an original 4G63 intake flange and cut it down for re use in this project

then the 4G flange was fitted exatly in place

the fixture was pre drilled to replicate the 4G cylinder head and align all the ports with the new bolt holes


I tested the fit on the engine stand motor

Then I welded it up, front and rear


now i will consintrate on the EGR system

[IDriftNaked]

wow bill! i think that thing looks great! you had a way better plan for welding up the runners than i did. i was thinking of leaving and inch of the dsm runniners sticking out and reducing them until they sleeveed into the evo intake, im pretty sure it would have looked horrible but it was an idea off the top of my head then.
i cant thank you enough for taking my idea into consideration and working with it although you say it wont work

thanks again bill

[DoubleJ]

If you didnt want to fab as much you could just use a 2G dsm head so that the sizes will match up. My question is in genral, do the runners match up with the head? Like if you used the 2G head.

[Bill Hincher]

I havent measured everything out yet , all I did was center the inlets to the 4G head, dont forget , this is just the beginning of the project and I dont know where it will lead ( exactly)
I have enough material to match the porting , but by doing that, I will only be changing the hieght of the taper furthur up the runner. but if I dont match the port , it will create an 'eddy current' at the outlet of the runner . that promotes backfires on de acceleration
The throttle body is the same size as the 4G first gen engine, but the EVO runners are shorter and tapered, the first gen 4G is 6 inches longer with no taper.
They didnt change how much air got to the engine, they changed the angle and the speed of the air to the engine. the higher you can flow the air down over the center of the intake valves the better performance , plus you keep the incoming air charge further away from the heat of the engine , so its denser

[Bill Hincher]

although you say it wont work

NOOOOOOOOOOO man, I didnt say it wouldnt work, I said it couldnt be done, so I just went ahead and did it

it will work fine

[IDriftNaked]

it will work fine [/quote]

those words just made my week!! lol very cool

[Bill Hincher]

..could you build me a intake ... and for egr could you just run a line from 1 side to the other

great minds.............think alike

[jeffball610]

That thing looks great. Probably would have worked fine in my 510 and I could have saved some time trying to do what I did.

Anyway, I think DoubleJ is right. I was thinking that the EVO ports were the same size as the 2G ports. There may be an issue since the EVO has the injectors in the intake manifold and may not work with the 2G head. The EVO makes previsions for this in the head with a little "bump". The 1G ports are large enough that you can just do what Bill did and have room left over.

So Bill, were you doing this just to see if you could, or is this a prototype for your own design?

[Bill Hincher]

That thing looks great. Probably would have worked fine in my 510 and I could have saved some time trying to do what I did.

Anyway, I think DoubleJ is right. I was thinking that the EVO ports were the same size as the 2G ports. There may be an issue since the EVO has the injectors in the intake manifold and may not work with the 2G head. The EVO makes previsions for this in the head with a little "bump". The 1G ports are large enough that you can just do what Bill did and have room left over.

So Bill, were you doing this just to see if you could, or is this a prototype for your own design?

I really liked how well the intake fit the FWD set up, I dont like the taper, I had planned on doing an intake that would include moving the CAS into a
forward position , next to the throttle body
I am just poking around and seeing what the engineers did and finding out why and then using the findings to build something nice

[DoubleJ]

That thing looks great. Probably would have worked fine in my 510 and I could have saved some time trying to do what I did.

Anyway, I think DoubleJ is right. I was thinking that the EVO ports were the same size as the 2G ports. There may be an issue since the EVO has the injectors in the intake manifold and may not work with the 2G head. The EVO makes previsions for this in the head with a little "bump". The 1G ports are large enough that you can just do what Bill did and have room left over.

So Bill, were you doing this just to see if you could, or is this a prototype for your own design?

Yeah my plan was to use a 2G head and see how well it lines up. I wish I had the materials (2G head and EVO intake manifold) to see in person how it is. My guess is that you could machine down some room for the injectors that go into the head and then just block off the injector holes on the EVO manifold.

I am picking up an EVO manifold for $60 pretty soon. (not sure if that is a good deal or not)

I have the privilege of not having to do emissions. So it wont be a big deal getting rid of the EGR and other sensors. Block it all off! Tear em all out lol

[IDriftNaked]

I am picking up an EVO manifold for $60 pretty soon. (not sure if that is a good deal or not)
[/quote]

actually it is a better deal than what i got the intake that bill has in the pictures. i ended up paying $120 shipped! so if you can pick yours up for that cheap id get it

[Bill Hincher]

yeah , sure , be glad to help, just PM me

[DoubleJ]

It would be interesting to see how the EVO manifold flows matched up with a 1G head. Better air Velocity + More air flow.

I dont think it has been done yet?

[IDriftNaked]

once i recieve the evo intake from bill i will make sure that i let you guys know how it works out for me. if it wasnt for bill, i would have thrown the idea out the window since my fabbing skills arent that great.

i talked to a california smog referee today, i showed him what bill was doing on the intake and i explained how the egr pipe would probably be ran.
he seemed pretty confused at first but then when he saw the post he wanted to know more. to make a long story short he said that the intake project can work for smog legalization, as far as visual and emission function goes.

[Bill Hincher]

I had to decide on how to route the EGr gas to the inlet side of the throttle body, so I dropped by the local power line store here and told them what I was doing and what kind of work it would do and they suppied me with a couple connectors, then I made the adaptor to accept the connectors

then I cut out the existing EGR routing




Then I welded in my adaptors and located my new connectors

Then I surfaced my flange for the fit to the cylinder head


and the matched the porting from the measurements I took before I cut the original flange

then I assembled it to see how it all fit with the original fuel rail




now all I have to do is route a steel line between the two connectors to have acomplete unit

[screemin eagle]

pretty awsome bill. can you get those casted aswell?

[Bill Hincher]

yeah, I will putt around with it and some other idea's and maybe cast the whole set up, but I kinda like the idea of having things adjustable, like the size of the plenum, so its just as easy to work with an original 1st gen intake and modify it

[75COLT]

With the EVO intake I could save my brake booster on the colt. Probably going to make the switch. I don't need the EGR though. my car is smog exempt! Nice work though Bill once again.

Ian

[Bill Hincher]

hey Ian ! how ya doin man?
dont buy a manifold yet, let me see how Travis's manifold comes out, I am building a new jig for it now, just measure how much room you need for the master cylinder and give me an idea of how much room you need

[75COLT]

Bill and Travis, I already have a 1 gen intake from DJ. It has been TB flanged and EGR port completely removed. The master cyl isn't the problem but the booster. I like the EVO intake because of the overall design and TB position in reference to my intercooler. Look at the pics in the project section to see what I am trying to explain. I think it is similar to what the conquest/starion guys are experiencing.

Ian

[IDriftNaked]

i really like what you're doing to my intake bill, you sir have very awesome skills!

[Dropped_Mitsu]

I am very interested in that manifold bill. If you do start to make them I will probably need one after I complete my swap and getting it running correctly before I take it to the smog ref.

[Bill Hincher]

as with everything, I think too much

I built something I have had in mind and took it to the pattern shop today, the big problem at my end is building the inlet runners and get an even casting that looks good , performs well and meets emmision controls in California
the numbers are this, I need to build and sell about 25 units to make it possible, the pattern shop is gonna be $7500.00 bucks and then the units will be about $175.00 per unit to be casted, then I gotta machine them out

The EVO intake looks good ,but I am not impressed with the match of the runner port, the taper in the EVO will be shorter than I would like it to be . The unit I would like to build would have just as short a runner as the EVO unit but the taper would have a much better port match at the cylinder head to maintain air speed

I got the T 56 bellhousings in today and I am building the shit outta GM adaptors so I aint got a lot of time to develop the intake

I have crunched the numbers of air velocity and I come away with the impression that runner length has been given way too much importance

[Bill Hincher]

sorry about the delay on the intake David, I just need to get ahead a little

[IDriftNaked]

no problem bill

[77amc]

Bill, I could see you eventually building your OWN version of the 4g motors by the time you'd be 'done'.
Like Dart World Products or Donovan does with the sbc..

E

[Lusion]

thats alot of work for a different intake, wont the stock 1G intake work on the quests?

[Bill Hincher]

well yeah, this is a lot of work, but its a wealth of knowlege and dont forget the goal of meeting Emmision control laws and clearing the master cylinder without sacrificing performance


this line looks a little long but it had to be fit into the two locations . maybe next time I will put a 90 elbow in one end

All this does is collect the exhaust from one end of the cylinder head and move it to the other end of the intake manifold, no tampering has occured