Turbo 350 trans adaptor

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:29 am

beats me errol

I guess you try using a light car with lots of horsepower, sounds about right, dont it?

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:19 pm

77amc wrote:Hey Bill I've been a thinkin if the weight of the vehicle being used for this would have to be lighter..?
Just because I thought of this adapter for the civic build and would be using the colt turbo engine (1.6) and this engine just doesn't have the mass spinning like my V8's would.
Where would the weak link be if your stall is around 3000 but your shift points are around 5000+..? (my 66 impala shifted at 5200 wot)

Race peeps have all told me that the more torue you have the converter will actually multiply it. SO if I"m spinning this 1600 up would I need a 'tighter' converter or actually less stall like say a 2200?
The whole car should weigh in around 1700-2300 depending on how much the front suspension ends up to be.

I'm starting out with the 1600 since it runs already and is pretty low mileage (102k)

OH, what's the 'about' price for your whole kit..?

Errol

your going to want a looser converter so you can stall it up and make boost and leave the line in your powerband.i would say 3500 would be a good place to start for a small turbo

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:06 pm

I'm up with the light car/high power thing, it's just I was worried about over taxing the 1600 (my cheap choice just because I already have it)

Maybe it'll be good enough to set it all up and running and then start a good stout 2.0+L build after.

I don't mean to sound like a goober. I know the rear, and trans can handle the HP. And after thinking about it more since last night, The 4g61t site guys say it's not 'that hard' to get up to 275-300hp with the 1.8 head and bigger Mitsu turbo and 2.0L ECU. And they shift around 5-7grand.. SO, I guess I did sound like a goober

sorry

ANyhow. Have you come up with a price and a approximate date to start taking orders?

E

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:23 pm

I am seriously thinking about just posting all the numbers on how to drill the plate for the do it yourself crowd and then just supplying the crankshaft adaptor that way it could fit everybodies budget. there aint no reason in the world to pay $400.00 bucks ( from what I have seen advertised)for a flat plate with 12 holes in it. hell for that matter I will probably publish the drawings on the adaptor. I got to make some tools and then I can give a price on it, but the price will be a third of what they are charging now
Its not the wieght of the car to control the stall speed, its more related to the size of the tires that are acting on the cars wieght and the locaters on your rear suspension
when you build your rear suspesion just envision a pry bar from the back of the car with the rear wheels as the pivot point, then arrainge the front of the suspension links to where you want the leverage of the rear axle to act on the CG of the cars weight

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:09 am

Bill, your an outstanding member man...

I already have a 1/2 tranny adapter... but i was just going to sell it and buy yours... so I'm kinda waiting on a price as well.

We also have a local place that can make the parts off your drawlings, But I think you should just sell them yourself for all the hard work you put into it.

I would be PROUD to put your name on my cars mod list... hell send me a sticker and it'll be on the lexan!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:46 am

all my stuff is sold 'at cost' I do this for the challenge, like putting together a puzzle

I dont have any stickers and I dont sponser racing

It is not fair to the guys who part with a hard earned buck for parts

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:47 pm

ill buy your parts AND put your name on the car...hell ill go make the stickers....

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:59 pm

only in America man!!!!!!!!!!!!!! we are a different breed of cat

come on down and I will help you build your adaptor on the bridgeport

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:06 pm

I wonder how much it would cost to trailer my junk to your shop.. haha.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:19 pm

I remeber DJ couldnt believe I cut an engine in half, he didnt know why

this ougt to be a very cost effective way to build the RWd set up, the starter was $130.00 and that was the only expense besides the adaptor plate and crank adaptor, the new flywheel is optional I guess, but I dont see a need for one with the Mits engine

with every step of assembly I kept track of the center with the dial indicator

it is zero to the centerline of the crankshaft

I hope you guys know what your talking about , this is a box stock old powerglide fully assembled with the torque convertor, my assumsion is that the power glide and the turbo 350/400 are all the standard set up

the torque convertor spins free with 1/8 inch clearance

the crank is set up all the way back into the convertor because there are no thrust bearing in this crank, so I know it is good

the starter turns it over like new money

that was my major concern

I have a few details to adjust out . but its perfect , I will be meeting with a couple of engineers over at Hydromatic and talk about some material choices and then get with the steel supplier and find out about material costs, I think it will have about a 4 hour machine shop time involved and then its done, its all GM from the adaptor back

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:42 am

That's it. The SBC is coming out of dad's pickup truck and in goes a 4G63.

Just kidding.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 8:08 am

YOUR DAD HAS A TRUCK??????????????????????? WOW !

my dad has a cart, we cant afford a horse but my sister is expecting a job soon down at the corner of Jefferson and 13th street so we may be getting a horse soon

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:45 pm

this makes me think that buschur is just that much more of a crook. if Bill can do this this easy then how come Dave with all his infinite knowledge couldnt do the same? dave buschur, the ultimate rip off artist.

damn Bill, as usual, great job.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:37 am

peregrine wrote: if Bill can do this this easy .

hey !

eazzzzy ?????????????????

did you get my video?

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:49 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:
peregrine wrote: if Bill can do this this easy .
hey ! eazzzzy ?????????????????

did you get my video?

yeah i did. then i found out my vcr doesnt work

i took it in to get repaired and i havent heard from them. ill watch it this week.

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:34 pm

Bill, Goober here..

The only thing with settting the converter in the pump with the "standard" 11-12" converter is if you don't smash your fingers pushing and rotating back into the trans, it's not deep enough in the pump.. (unless they have girly fingers)
The smaller 10" on down go in without the abuse. Since there is alot of tolerance when installing the converter, the last 3/4" will engage it and be more stable. (depending on the shape of the front pump bushing also)
And when wrestling the trans around with the converter in, it's good idea to get some small thick wire (coat hanger) to run a loop under the pan to a front pan bolt and then up to hold the converter in place.

It wouldn't be the first time one slipped out and tore up the pump on startup or priming the oil.

All the GM auto trans have the same bolt patterns from what I've worked with, just different rear mounting locations.
350,400 converters swap out but the lockup or overdrive ones don't
(guys... DON'T use the t350 with the blue 4-plug-in at the fron pass side.. it was GMs attempt at a lockup t350 in the 80's that won't take much abuse.
And the owner has to make the decision on a long shaft (truck) or the short shaft (car) trans for the driveshaft work. ANd they did make a 375 that is a stouter t350 with extra clutches I think used in taxis and light trucks. In addition, you can get different gearsets (I think up to 30%) for the 1st and second to get off the line faster and still have a 1:1 final if you guys want to run a taller (gas friendly) rear to act like a two speed w/overdrive.

I believe the 200 (air-cooled w/big holes in the bellhousing.. yuk), powerglide, 350 and 200r4 will be about the same length and use the same slip yoke. the 400's will be longer, HEAVIER, and need a bigger yoke for the bigger output shaft and need a electric kickdown switch for a passing gear. (t350's use a thin cable (TV cable) that pulls from the 'carb' or throttle body that actuates the passing gear valve in the valvebody)
It takes some 'doin' to get the vacume modulatershift points,TV cable, and WOT all working with the powerband and turbo kick-in, but it's really neat when it all comes together and you're more worried about keeping it straight and holding on than shifting..

Errol

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:25 pm

the whole excersise was based on the fact that everything was built around the stock set up you would buy from the GM factory.make sure and buy the torque convereter / trans as a combination. If everything from the factory fits , then everything in the aftermarket will follow, so its the builders choice to provide the convertor with the stall speed of choice. yes I agree with the 10 inch set up, but if a guy is on a tough budget and just wants to get it 'up and running' he can use the whole stock set up out of the junk yard to ' test and tune' where he wants it
right now I have to find the formula for input to the moment of interia required to find the right material for the crankshaft spacer, while I have the information on the flex plate, I must factor in the stress involved in the much smaller diameter spacer I have to build

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:29 am

Wow it is coming along nicely Bill. I would much rather buy the plate from you than take the measurements to someone else and hope they machine it correctly, I believe others feel the same way

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:30 pm

I got a price on raw material the aluminum is the most expensive I will be using 6061 aluminum and 4130 steel for the hub, roughly $150.00 a set, ( that includes pre-cut to size) then I will be getting prices on the bolts required, this will have to use first gen auto trans 4G63 bolts for the crankshaft ( I hope Sam can get us a price on that) the auto trans bolts have smaller heads and are shorter then the manual trans bolts, then jegs offers the GM bolts for about $11.00 then after the hubs are machined, they have to be heat treated, I dont have a price on that yet. the starter looks like a standard Honda/Toyota reduction gear starter and jegs offers a replacement bendix spring for about $30.00, I am thinking I ougtta pick up a bendix spring and see what it fits, then get the right used starter and stick the right bendix gear on it for cheap.
to get a good price on material and make it worth while for my steel supplier to pre-cut my stuff, he wants me to order 20 kits , thats roughly $3000.00 I have to put up front
I want to keep this thing under $300.00 If I can , but it depends on the heat treating price

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:44 pm

I hought you used a chevy starter Bill?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:08 pm

yeah I did, but what I am saying is , that starter is just a Toyota/Honda reduction gear starter with a GM gear, if I can PROVE that, I can save you the cost of a new starter, hell I got plenty of old Toyota reduction gear starters a used starter from a Toyota truck would be $30.00

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:22 am

if anyone needs the stock auto 1G bolts ill ship them out for cheap.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:23 pm

hook me up for next week Sam, I will be getting my materail in about Tuesday (the 8th) and i will be sending out a kit to you towards the end of the week, but I need somebody to plug it in and test it

kickinwing · Post by **kickinwing** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:19 pm

Nice work Bill,

I would like to purchase or acquire one of these "kits" I have a methanol injected 4g63 in an outlaw pulling tractor that I am having problems keeping the stock d50 tranny in one piece.

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:22 pm

wow, i wanna see pics of that.

kickinwing · Post by **kickinwing** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:06 pm

Its in process of a rebuild

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:11 pm

the first one has to get into DragCorolla's hands , it was his idea, the only thing is, his converetor was a 'stand alone' set up so I have to drill his flywheel to accept his convertor, the rest of the units will be generic in form, they will all bolt exactly as any box stock Chevy unit
I am waiting for materials . end of story.

kickinwing · Post by **kickinwing** » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:22 pm

ok thanks for your hard work and let me know when this is avaliable

Scott

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:58 am

the materials are in for the GM adaptor , I had everything pre cut to save time, I have to build acouple of fixtures yet to build the flange

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:09 am

this coupler is built from grade 8 steel, which is probably overkill, but save one failure and you saved them all >;o)

the back of the coupler was the biggest chalenge, it had to mate to the crankshaft surface perfectly flat and the outer circle had to seat the crankshaft perfectly center to avoid any balance problems

the thickness of the coupler was critical because I am kinda forced to work with 1/2 inch spacer plate, I had to keep the coupler thin yet strong

the flywheel bolts were staggard over the original Mits crankshaft bolts so the holes would not create a weakness. there was no room for error here, the bolt circle had to be exactly in the right places and the bolt sizes had to be exactly correct diameter, so I had to use the first circle in metric measurements and the second line in standard measurements

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:58 pm

This is quite fantastic. In just the past few months that I've been on this site you Bill have changed the whole Mistubishi world!
I've popped around on other websites and have read others talking about you and your trans adapters, skill, and quality of product.

The scope of this is WORLD WIDE.. Just think, Some car nut in Manila or Stockholm could order your parts and it will change that them and the area for the better.
Or just think of some racer that wins a championship using your product..
I could just see those camera men showing your bellhousing or intake or...
on ESPN in the pit areas and the racer sayin how this has changed alot of his/her options and made it more competitive..

You truely are a blessing to tons of people world wide Bill..

Now if I could just decide on what/which project I should get going on Maybe I'd make an order..

Errol

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 7:32 pm

Looks very nice Bill, great work

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm

Why are American auto makers so dumb an still use SAE measurements? Metric is so much better. It's also so much easier to work with. Who wants to reach for the 11/32 socket when you can just grab a 10mm or whatever?

And decimals are good. The stock market even wised up and uses decimals instead of fractions now. When will GM and Ford wake up?

But Bill is the man and we all know that.

kickinwing · Post by **kickinwing** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 5:38 pm

Bill,

I was just curious about the heat treating process on the 4130, I know that you are trying to keep the price down, but would it really be needed to have that hub heat treated? I had one of my fidanza flywheels off today and it looks to be about 1/2 at the flange that bolts to the crank and It looks to be made out of 6061. I have put down over 600 hp to that particular flywheel and never had any issues. I would figure that the 4130 would be a little tougher than that aluminum just kind of curious of your thoughts.

Keep up the great work
Thanks
Scott

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:17 pm

yeah Scott. your probably right about that, its over kill to harden the coupler, I have to use carbide tools to cut the stuff in its anealled state!

I just dont want anybody sticking a 3500 stall convertor in there and ripping the flywheel off with a 600hp motor!

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:31 am

Wow. Been a while since I've been here and look what I missed!!

Go back 4 years ago, I was looking at building an adapter and had drawn up in Solidworks, this exact scenario. I always wondered why Buschur hadn't gone this route, because it was so much simpler and lower cost. I simply never had enough time to make anything materialize.

I also have the block bolt pattern for the mitsu 3.0L. Probably could get the crank info from my buddy at Chrysler (I worked there before, thus why I got the block info, I just left before I got everything I wanted!)

Who did you meet with over at Powertrain? I'm in development over at Powertrian and the motorsports engineer for trans sits in the next cube. My supervisor was the trans motorsports manager until they dismantled the group. They are now down to one person for transmission. Any how, did he get you pull up on the convertor?

What would you want to crank out both adapters. I want one!!! Seriously. Check, Cash or Paypal??

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:52 am

your in Toledo?
the trick was to use the automatic bolts for the coupler, I wont exactly explain why because it would require drawings, but that allowed me to sink the coupler floor to accept the GM convertor and still use a 1/2 spacer plate

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 11:20 am

I received mine yesterday and its nothing short of a masterpiece

Bill, Thanks again... i can now get the tranny mounts and bars in the 25.5 car.

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:26 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:your in Toledo?

Directed at me?

If so, no. I'm now located in Pontiac (was Ypsilianti).

What do you have for converter pull up? Distance from converter face (engine side) to crank adapter. This is with the convertor fully pressed into the pump on the trans. Can be critical to ensure life of the pump.

Do you have another set of adapters to sell? Would the price be the same for the wideblock setup, also? I've got a 4D56 setup I've been thinking about swapping into a Conquest and with the gearing, it's a bit much for the motor. So, I'd likely go with a 700R4 setup.

If I sent you some parts, could you build a similar crank adapter for me to bolt up to a driveshaft. Long story, but to make it short..... Mid 90's John Deere front deck commercial mower. Two of them to be exact. First engine goes bad. Swap, engine out of second mower, it goes bad. Manufacturer of engine's been out of business for 8 years and parts are hard, if not immpossible, to find. To me, not worth the time fix original motors for it happen again. Both motors had 2K hours. So, I'd like to try and swap a mits 4 cyl into one. Probably a 4G15 because I have several to choose from, but could also use a 4G63 I have laying around.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:41 pm

OHHHHHHH! JEEEEEEEEEEEEZUZZZZZZ I forgot all about ' convertor pull up' I feel like such a dope!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDTNBjoDQw

1/8 inch

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:48 pm

LOL Bill your hilarious...

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:31 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:OHHHHHHH! JEEEEEEEEEEEEZUZZZZZZ I forgot all about ' convertor pull up' I feel like such a dope!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZDTNBjoDQw

1/8 inch

I have dial up so, I can't see the vid. Not sure why all the sarcasm. It was a legitimate question. I know you didn't forget about it, as you were discussing it in prior posts, but it appeared you were more/less guessing where it should be.

FWIW, GM's spec for the "E" dimension is 21.67mm +/- 1mm. This is the dimension from the rear face of block/front face of trans to the pad on the convertor. This applies for all V6, V8 (big and small block) and the inline 6 up through mid 90s. LSX series engine changed all that.

My use of convertor pull up was poor verabage I picked up hanging around the dyno setup group.

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:29 pm

That's what I was trying to say in laymans terms.. (way back)
I was pretty close though, 3/4" Morpheus got 21.67mm

Hey Morpheus,
Now looking at the depth of the slots on the converter 'neck' (that goes into the pump) has to be deeper than the pump 'fingers' that go in them, how much of the pump 'fingers' are actually in the slots after the pull up?

It's amazing how all power is being transfered to two little 5/16 or so 'fingers' and only a fraction of that is used..

Heck, my presure washer pump coupler has 3 huge fingers on each side
Errol

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:26 am

well, I donno about all of that, I been around cars so long I quit reading the manuals ( really) I do it all by feel
the converter passes over two sets of splines, after that it engages the pump with two slots or fingers, when you bolt an engine to a transmission you need the converter to slide back far enough to spin freely in the pump and then it must slide forward to be bolted to the flex plate, it cant slide too far or it will not be properly engaged in the pump, and it cant be too far back or it will bind up when the engine heats up, so you want it just about in the middle, so thats where I put it
I have made a fairly good living fixing what engineers build on half the education

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:16 am

FWIW, GM's spec for the "E" dimension is 21.67mm +/- 1mm. This is the dimension from the rear face of block/front face of trans to the pad on the convertor. This applies for all V6, V8 (big and small block) and the inline 6 up through mid 90s. LSX series engine changed all that.

My use of convertor pull up was poor verabage I picked up hanging around the dyno setup group.[/quote]

this number has no value to me because it assumes that the crankshaft in the Mits engine extends exactly the same length out of the rear of the block as the small block Chevy does
the combination of the engine adaptor plate coupled with the crankshaft coupler had to be reasoned out in both metric and standard measurements because of the limitations of my tools and machinery and how I could accurately cut/reproduce the exact same part repeadatly
so I had to draw the combination in both metric and standard scale forward and then backward so that each value had both meanings and proper outcome
but the answer is exactly the same, I wanted and I achieved 1/8 inch free travel in the torque convertor to assure proper alignment

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:52 am

Bill Hincher wrote: this number has no value to me because it assumes that the crankshaft in the Mits engine extends exactly the same length out of the rear of the block as the small block Chevy does
the combination of the engine adaptor plate coupled with the crankshaft coupler had to be reasoned out in both metric and standard measurements because of the limitations of my tools and machinery and how I could accurately cut/reproduce the exact same part repeadatly
so I had to draw the combination in both metric and standard scale forward and then backward so that each value had both meanings and proper outcome
but the answer is exactly the same, I wanted and I achieved 1/8 inch free travel in the torque convertor to assure proper alignment

I have to strongly disagree. It should very much apply. This dimension gives you where the face of the convertor lugs (engine side) should be in relation to the engine side face of the transmission case.

One point of the crank adapter is to compensate for the difference in the distance in location of the trans side face of the crank.

If you measure from the trans side of the block adapter (equal to block side of trans case) to the convertor side of the flexplate where the lugs ride......... that should be 21.67mm (or whatever standard equivilent)

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:00 pm

77amc wrote:Hey Morpheus,
Now looking at the depth of the slots on the converter 'neck' (that goes into the pump) has to be deeper than the pump 'fingers' that go in them, how much of the pump 'fingers' are actually in the slots after the pull up?

It's amazing how all power is being transfered to two little 5/16 or so 'fingers' and only a fraction of that is used..

Not sure on the finger/pump engagement length......... I'd have to ask the converter guys.

As bill pointed out above, the power is actually put through the input shaft and stator shaft. The stator shaft is fixed to the pump and is part of makes the torque multiplication happen. The "fingers" on the stator hub on the convertor only run the pump.

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:16 am

Any interest in including BOP and 3.0L pattern on it also?

greenghost · Post by **greenghost** » Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:57 am

I can't wait to get mine!!!!

Gordian79 · Post by **Gordian79** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:44 pm

hey bill.what are the chances that i can use this plate with a manual Gforce clutchless 5 speed tranny.being that the adapter from 4g to gm crank i would be able to use a ram finger clutch or something similar.i will be using a trick titanium 8 5/8 gm bell housing.