6 Bolts are Dinosaurs. How much more $$ to go modern?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:47 pm

I've been thinking for days about my future destroked 2.1L 6 bolt engine. Its going to be an expensive swap to say the least. How much longer and I'm going to justify spending money on an engine that ceased production nearly 15 years ago?

The next question is, how much more would it be to source parts for a modern 2.4L block and an Evo DOHC head and crank? Surely not as appealing to the junkyard swapper, but for people building racing engines or just wanting to do it with parts with < 100k miles, it might be a better option.

With members like Bill, bellhousings and transmission shouldn't be so much of an issue, especially if more contemporary engines and transmissions are used (more future proof). There will likely be more of a market for modern 4G6x parts over the next few years as the Evo7-9 family ages.

Its also worth mentioning that that family is aging too. Mitsubishi's next Evo will have an aluminum turbocharged 4B11 2.0L MIVEC engine. Getting sponsorship with a 6 bolt is next to impossible. An Evo 4G63 might give better chances, but jumping into 4B11 stuff early might pay for itself with sponsorship and/or garner magazine interest if done well enough (and you know the right people).

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:06 pm

Looks like there already might be some fun 4B1x options to Frankenstein together. Wonder if the Outlander 2.4L had a different deck height. Wonder if it uses the same head as the Evo X.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_4B1_engine

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 9:22 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:I've been thinking for days about my future destroked 2.1L 6 bolt engine. Its going to be an expensive swap to say the least. How much longer and I'm going to justify spending money on an engine that ceased production nearly 15 years ago?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM...............dinasours?
the small block Chevy was born in 1955, the Chrysler Hemi in 1954, anybody throwing in the towel on them?

All the technolegy we have today is from piston engine development done during the fight for the ' Battle of Britain' done by Rolls Royce for the Merlin engine in the spitfire.

After the jet aircraft was born all high performance engine work stopped

Horsepower doesnt know what valve covers are on the engine, its still horse power. OH yeah, I agree it takes money to go fast, its your chioce what motor you decide to dump money into,but your gonna spend a whole lot more jumping around with combinations. The 4G63 is a compact ,lightwieght, CHEAP, well built power plant that will deliver the 1/4 mile in 8 seconds for years to come

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:11 pm

I agree with Bill that some things never really go out of style. While there are updates to the 4G63, like the EVO engine, the availability of the motor will keep it around for a while. Even though the 6 bolt turbo hasn't been made in 15 years, the 6 bolt has still been around a while longer. Also, you can use the 7 bolt motor with few issues. There are people building strong motors on the 7 bolt platform. If I were you, I would stick with the new EVO 4G63 and not the 4B11. To me, the aluminum block is not a strong point for big power. Also, it has not been tested yet and your money could be better spent elsewhere. Besides, what car are you going to put the 4B11 into? Surely not a 20 year old Starion?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:01 am

Bill Hincher wrote:The small block Chevy was born in 1955, the Chrysler Hemi in 1954, anybody throwing in the towel on them?

Maybe they should...

Bill Hincher wrote:All the technolegy we have today is from piston engine development done during the fight for the ' Battle of Britain' done by Rolls Royce for the Merlin engine in the spitfire.

Where are my production sleeve valves then? One of my favorite sites to waste time: http://www.enginehistory.org/

Bill Hincher wrote:Horsepower doesnt know what valve covers are on the engine, its still horse power. OH yeah, I agree it takes money to go fast, its your chioce what motor you decide to dump money into,but your gonna spend a whole lot more jumping around with combinations. The 4G63 is a compact ,lightwieght, CHEAP, well built power plant that will deliver the 1/4 mile in 8 seconds for years to come

Marketing does care about age of a platform.

jeffball610 wrote:Besides, what car are you going to put the 4B11 into? Surely not a 20 year old Starion?

A 36 year old colt.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 8:50 am

Lighten up DJ, just have some fun , sponsership is not gonna happen unless you sell your soul to the devil, and like you told me once, money just complicates things

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:20 pm

The 4B11 would be a pain to RWD. The oil filter housing, which is cast into the bedplate, is right where a motor mount would need to be. I'm sure there are ways around this, but it is the first obstacle I'm dealing with.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:49 pm

4B11 was a last minute addition to my first post. I intended to start discussing the modern 4G63/4 from the recent Mitsubishis... you know. The ones that everybody thinks spin the opposite direction... those!

Does anyone have any prices, photos or info on a 2.4 bottom end and a DOHC head? I guess the Evo head is the way to go. Did anything non-Evo come with the same DOHC head?

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:11 pm

I thought "those" were the ones that have to have the oil drains blocked when putting the dual cam head on them. I believe all the "reversed" engines had those drains.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:56 pm

As far as I understand it, the newer 2.4L is the same swap as the old one. I thought I heard of at least one person using the EVO head on the 2.4L block. You might contact Buschur or AMS or someone that has lots of experience with the EVO 4G63. But just a thought, where are the engine mounts on the EVO block? I know they moved the engine mounts to the tranny on the 2G DSM. Luckily, they kept the old bolt holes from the original engine mounts so it's still possible to use RWD engine mounts. However, they did remove some other holes that Bill used for extra braces that are not present on the exhaust side of the 2G 4G63. Those might be some issues you should check into before committing to the project. You might also see if that EVO head would bolt up to the older 4G63 since it is far superior to the DSM units.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:54 pm

I guess there are no RWD vehicles to rob parts from like we do with 6 and 7 bolt RWD trucks and vans. That'll limit things like water pumps and stuff.

Here is a picture I found with a google image search of an Evo 4G63:
Not sure why this one doesnt work but the next one does:
http://www.lancershop.com/product_image.php?imageid=772

Looks like it has bolt holes on the driver's side (for us US guys at least)

Oil Pump

We've got a little time to think about this stuff.

4g63mightymax · Post by **4g63mightymax** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:25 am

As an owner of a 2000 Galant with a 2.4L ...... I can tell you that some of the 8G Galant / 3G Eclipse guys are using Kia Optima (I believe ?) DOHC cylinder heads on them because they are the same casting as the newer EVO heads. You can usually buy EVO cams cheap because people upgrade them. I haven't done a ton of research into this, but it may be worth a look if you are interested in the newer 2.4's.
Check out www.club3g.com and www.thegalantcenter.net, and I bet you will find some more info.
For me, I am sticking with my 91 6-bolt, because it works, and I'm cheap.

-Jeremy

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:15 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:

Looks like it has bolt holes on the driver's side (for us US guys at least)

see the difference in the block/head pattern? same bolt hole pattern, but the drains are all wrong.

wait a minute....i think i just had an epiphany....your wanting to use a later evo head...so the drains would need to be there....duh!! I wonder what EMS would let you use the MIVEC... it's basically just a solenoid

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:05 am

smog wrote:looks like those are oil draings and they overhand on the left side, Could be possible to tap and drill em and run external draings into the pan?

Why? There is a perfectly good matching block and head out there. Why mix and match? What combination would possibly require this?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:17 am

I'm sorry. I was talking about the newer generation "backwards" 4G64s. Those being the ones with the timing belt facing the passenger side in those silly transverse cars. They must have a more commonly used name. Do people call them 7 bolt? 3G? 4G?

I could understand a little bit if you wanted a wideblock 6bolt 2.4L engine with a modern Evo DOHC head, but still, that does not seem worth the trouble. One advantage of the "weird" new evo bolt pattern is that it is still young and making a custom bellhousing for it would be marketable for quite a few years.

I guess the real question is... are the new "backwards" 4G64s the same headgasket and bellhousing pattern as the Evo 4G63.

mylastquest · Post by **mylastquest** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 6:29 am

hey Dj i have a Turbo mag and some guy put an EVO lX 4G63 in his 3G eclipse with the stock FWD 4G64 tranny, and i have the pics of the motor in the car, if this helps any???

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:14 am

Nice. That does help. Can't wait till Bill gets time to do an Evo billhousing. Do those 3G 4G64s have oil squirters?

mylastquest · Post by **mylastquest** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:43 am

no squirters on 3G 4G64, this guy Adam did the swap a former AMS master mechanic, DEVO Tuning in Illinois is wear the shop is at, he has the 2006 EVO 9 MII VEC 4G63t with a 2G ported exhaust manifold and a 14g Galant VR4 turbo, and Autronic stand-alon engine management , this might help us a little more.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:51 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:Nice. That does help. Can't wait till Bill gets time to do an Evo billhousing. Do those 3G 4G64s have oil squirters?

I will make time DJ

anytime, com 'on up for a couple weeks and I will 'learn' you how to do the final machine work so you can turn out your own

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:31 pm

I postponed my big trip from Jan to May so I may have a few months to do something like that. Maybe I'll track down a Colt chassis and bring it over there to fix up too.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:30 pm

20 years of progress and those Mitsubishi training videos look just as hokey as ever.

Nice video though!

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:48 am

DJ, didn't I send you all those vids? along with the manuals for the new EVO X?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:32 pm

slowquest wrote:DJ, didn't I send you all those vids? along with the manuals for the new EVO X?

You sent me some info on some old MIVEC stuff, but not on the Evo X. This setup looks much easier to deal with than the older style.

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:38 pm

I've got all the X stuff on a couple cd's at work i'll try to email you tomorrow. the big drawback on the 4b11 is with the timing chain and it stretching. they actually monitor both cam sensors, to see how the phasing between them changes to calculate stretch. supposedly stretch and valves hitting each other is going to be a big problem on this engine. and the mivec changing the cam timing makes it even worse.

cali · Post by **cali** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:20 am

DJpowerHaus wrote:I'm sorry. I was talking about the newer generation "backwards" 4G64s. Those being the ones with the timing belt facing the passenger side in those silly transverse cars. They must have a more commonly used name. Do people call them 7 bolt? 3G? 4G?

I could understand a little bit if you wanted a wideblock 6bolt 2.4L engine with a modern Evo DOHC head, but still, that does not seem worth the trouble. One advantage of the "weird" new evo bolt pattern is that it is still young and making a custom bellhousing for it would be marketable for quite a few years.

I guess the real question is... are the new "backwards" 4G64s the same headgasket and bellhousing pattern as the Evo 4G63.

yes they are...both match up perfectly. the most viable option seems to be to either using a compelte "newer" 4g63 or do the "newer '64'63 hybrid...then have a custom bellhhousing made.

(btw, im running a stroker 2.3 evo VIII in my 01 galant with eclipse fwd tranny, just picked up a starion and am looking to swap a '64/63 into it, hopefully i'll be of some help around here!)

cali · Post by **cali** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 4:21 am

mylastquest wrote:hey Dj i have a Turbo mag and some guy put an EVO lX 4G63 in his 3G eclipse with the stock FWD 4G64 tranny, and i have the pics of the motor in the car, if this helps any???

this is pretty much my setup...

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6 Bolts are Dinosaurs. How much more $$ to go modern?

6 Bolts are Dinosaurs. How much more $$ to go modern?

Re: 6 Bolts are Dinosaurs. How much more $$ to go modern?

Re: 6 Bolts are Dinosaurs. How much more $$ to go modern?