bellhousing development for T-56 trans

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:40 am

bill im on the list for wanting a 6 speed now. please PM me about completion times for this as im of the mind to get one by the end of the year.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:13 am

here is some more work done on the T 56 bellhousing, as you know I started with the horizonal datum line and built the outer ring for the bellhousing

I added the vertical datum line , this dowel centers where the input shaft will be

Now I added where the back of the clutch cover will be located, this is to ensure I have enough clearance for any clutch you want without rubbing the bellhousing

now i started to mount the T 56 trans facing to my horizonal datum. I placed the bolt pattern in my datum plate and extended it back to where it will locate on the trans, that way I can plan my draft in the pattern for casting purposes

As you can see i placed a 3 degree taper in all the locating dowels for draft

In this side view you can see how low I had to go in building the lower skirt of the bellhousing, the locater dowels will be external in this set up so i can get ground clearance and not have the lower lip of the bellhousing drag the pavement

this pic shows the center of the vertical datum ( input shaft of the trans) with the bolt pattern of the T 56 trans and that in turn is located in the center of the flywheel of the 4G63 bolt pattern which is in the lower , horizonal datum plate

the reasoning behind this layout is for twist, I had problems with aligning the transmissions to the index of the engine, so with this system I plan to index the trans better and hold my 1% tolerence for casting

You can see some of the detail in the work, I will clean it up a little next time so it doesnt have a rough looking cuts

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:15 am

question bill, the motor mounts ill be using put the motor stright up and down. no twisting. will the bellhousing make the shifter straight up and down as well? or will it sit at an angle? please tell me your building these to sit straight

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:30 am

absolutly straight up and down!

we got to get together and design the proper air plenum, the brake master cylinder should not be a problem to RWD, there is plenty of room to build a good quaility unit to aviod fitting problems as well as improve performance, you got the numbers with your car, I figure you know more about the requirements then I do, so if you can draw something up I will be glad to help.

as far as floor tunnel requirements, the w-55 will fit in anything, the R 154 needs a little massage on the floor, the T 56 is gonna require some extra room, so its up to the guy and what he wants to build, you wanna street car, go with the non turbo trans, you wanna racer that will NEVER brake, go with the R 154 , you wanna make a COMMITMENT ( like drinking real beer instead of ' light beer) ( Smog)

then you get the T 56 and raise some hell!

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:51 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:absolutly straight up and down!

we got to get together and design the proper air plenum, the brake master cylinder should not be a problem to RWD, there is plenty of room to build a good quaility unit to aviod fitting problems as well as improve performance, you got the numbers with your car, I figure you know more about the requirements then I do, so if you can draw something up I will be glad to help.

as far as floor tunnel requirements, the w-55 will fit in anything, the R 154 needs a little massage on the floor, the T 56 is gonna require some extra room, so its up to the guy and what he wants to build, you wanna street car, go with the non turbo trans, you wanna racer that will NEVER brake, go with the R 154 , you wanna make a COMMITMENT ( like drinking real beer instead of ' light beer) ( Smog) then you get the T 56 and raise some hell!

well that car was totaled 3 weeks ago. my buddy is lucky to be alive and i got some parts left over i can use. i bought an 86 starion 5 speed to build. no more drag cars for me. i may drag it but i want something that does everything very well. if the r154 is the one i need to go with then so be it. im gonna start doing some research on here for what cars the r154 came with. my buddy has a 88 or 89 turbo supra sitting at his shop hes parting out. is that the right one? and 2nd question, does that car have a hydraulic clutch system? i relly dont want a mechanical setup. im gonna spend alot of time and money on this starion and make it the cool all around car ive always wanted. recaro seats, etc.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:32 pm

yeah, I believe its 86 to 89 Supra turbo that came with the R 154 but it was in some other applications as well, some 4wd stuff too

I can build a cable set up but it seems like a step backwards, be glad to help you with it though.

i didnt readyour question right, YES it will be hydraulic

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:51 pm

smog wrote:r154 is hyrdraulic, but lluckily it's very eas to adapt for a starion.

28 bucks and I had my adapter line, well minus I need to ben the hard line 180 which is no big deal.

12inch piece of dot brake line and one 12inch piece of hard line which need to get a 180 bend at the end for the slave cylinder, but it all bolts in and fits

Here is a picture.
http://www.nwstarquest.com/project-1jz/ ... chline.jpg

And yes, third gen turbo supras had the r154. The non turbo had w58.

thanks guys. it sounds like i may be set up on this deal. bill you have a bellhousing ready to go? i have money for this right now.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:43 pm

yeah, I can cut one of my castings Monday and have it to you next friday

I would be very intrested in working out a shifter location change, I have seen it done to make them further back in the tunnel but I think one could be built to move the shifter forward if needed, that way you can set the engine back further

pm me

oh yeah, bye the way, I tried to post on DSMtuners and I am not allowed to post there anymore. we are doomed

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:36 pm

smog wrote:You will need to massage the transmission tunnel a bit to use a r154, and plan on cutting the length of the shifter down as it will stick quite a ways up.

theres no aftermarket short shifters for these? also is the shifter close to the stock spot in the console? that would kick ass if it was.

Bill Hincher wrote:yeah, I can cut one of my castings Monday and have it to you next friday

I would be very intrested in working out a shifter location change, I have seen it done to make them further back in the tunnel but I think one could be built to move the shifter forward if needed, that way you can set the engine back further

pm me

oh yeah, bye the way, I tried to post on DSMtuners and I am not allowed to post there anymore. we are doomed

no worries. that site went to shit as soon as kris started making money off of it. thres only one way to set this motor in there as ill be using stock motor mounts. nothing custom here for that part.

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:23 pm

theres a guy on ebay who sells a short throw for it mookeh1 he sells alot of starion shit too.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:34 pm

I turned down some dowel rod to represent where the bolt bosses are in the bellhousing, this is to make sure I have enough material on both sides of the main boss bolts, then I made some gussets from the main engine/bellhousing bolts to trans/bellhousing bolts to connect the two as securely as possible

These two bolts are the main bolt bosses for the top of the engine

notice how they tie in from the engine side to the trans side right where the bolts are

Then I built the inner ring for the bellhousing, this is a guide to make sure I have the inside of the bellhousing correctly spaced behind the clutch

You can see I have the back of the clutch represented from my center dowel ( datum) to make sure there are no wasted time in machining the inner surfaces after casting

You can see how the inner shell fits around where the back of the clutch pressure plate will be , I can add distance here to build in more clutch capability

then I simply welded the inner shell to the bellhousing mounting ring

I cheated with the starter pocket, I got tired of fighting that son of a bitch

so I cut one out of an old bellhousing and put it in

After the inner shell was welded in, I shrunk it down on the back side with my home made shrinker to size it down near the back side, this is because the flywheel is round, the bellhousing is egg shaped

can you see the bellhousing taking shape yet?

[/img]

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 10:22 am

god i cant wait for this. i could have a bonified t56 4g63 car next summer

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:38 pm

we had some good weather and i got all my outdoor chores done before the winter storms, so I should have this in the hands of the casting company the end of this week
the second one has your name on it ,peregrine

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:42 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:we had some good weather and i got all my outdoor chores done before the winter storms, so I should have this in the hands of the casting company the end of this week
the second one has your name on it ,peregrine

bad fucking ass.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:49 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:The second one has your name on it, peregrine

Literally?

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:16 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:
Bill Hincher wrote:The second one has your name on it, peregrine
Literally?

dremel scribe FTW

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:19 pm

ask jeff ball, I inscribe everybody's name on the bellhousing I sell them, I aint kiddin

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:32 pm

just thought I would show you the completed skeliton for the bellhousing, I still have to fill it in and tune it out

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:35 am

does anybody have any experience with this set up?
http://www.fidanza.com/newproducts.aspx

I want to start setting up the bellhousings for the twin clutch set up

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:36 pm

The inscription is a nice little detail. For those of us who have a personal relationship with our cars, it makes it special.

I think the twin disk setup would be more suited to racing. But I have no experience with them. I do have a Fidanza 8lb flywheel in my Colt GT (it runs!) and I need to rev it quite a bit more to get it moving off the line. Nothing against the twin disk setup, but a lot of DSM guys are running ridiculous power on ACT 2600 and the like. I'm going to try a South Bend setup on my Datsun. (if I ever get to it) But for those who need the T56 and will be putting down some serious power, I'm sure you'll want something smooth engaging. I would imagine the hydraulic throwout bearing on the T56 would make pressure plate engagement effort obsolete. You could just up the line pressure and it would feel stock, but I'm just guessing here really.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:36 am

I started to sheet metal in from the internal side of the bellhousing

looks kinda rough at this point , don't it?

I just LUV using one of my english wheels, you gotta use a slow steady hand to make the sheet metal move to where you want

are you starting to see the shape of the housing?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:33 am

its not a problem, I would be very interested in building a wide block set up, I had spoke to DJ about it when he visited here, but we got to settle on a tranasmission, I am building a bellhousing for a EVO8 witha jerico 4 speed right now but I just cant move as fast as everybody wants me to
When I built one for the W 55 ( which I thought was pretty universal use) and everybody wants a R-154, so I build one for the R 154 and I get asked to change it to a R 151 4wheel drive, then I build one for the T 56 and another guy wants the jerico 4 speed

Its getting easier to do because I am gaining experience and its interesting work, BUT I wanna work on the dry sump system and the cooling system for the RWD 4G63 too!

So if you can all agree on what transmission you want, I will build a wide block set up and get it in the proper budget price range so its affordable

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:08 pm

all I need is the spacer plate from the wide block and I gotta know what flywheel/starter you want, then pick out the trans you would like

and dont forget, thius is freehanded, anything is possible, including clocking the trans on its side and building a remote shifter so the engine can be lower in the car ( think out of the box)

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:16 pm

well. it would be nice to build into a dual pattern. the limiting factor would be the flywheel/starter combination. Pick the starter flywheel set up you want , with the crankshaft you want and send me the plate , and we will go from there

The EVO has even a wider pattern and the flywheel is 12 inches. I think the wide block ( being built for a van/truck) was built to accept more twist than the narrow block, (thats why I added more mounting bolts) I dont know if the flywheel is much bigger

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:20 am

no, the EVO8 bellhousing bolt pattern is much wider then the 4G63
and I know some guys are saying the 4G61 is the same bolt pattern but I have a tried that and I know they are not the same

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:10 pm

The 4g61 is the same bolt pattern as the (dsm) 4g63.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:10 pm

I think one of the reasons that Chad went with the custom flywheel for his T56 kit was to use the "cheaper" and bigger V8 clutches to give big torque holding ablity and a stock pedal pressure.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:42 pm

my bellhousings work only on the 4G63 narrow block , first and second gen, the EVO looks just like the second gen 4G63 bolt pattern but the lower three bellhousing bolts are all spaced about 1/2 inch wider then the 4g63
I was lucky enough to have the top two mounting bolts be the same as the 4 g63 and I could build the housing off those locaters

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:06 am

just show in off , smogmiester!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:46 pm

hey Kane, did you send me the wide block plate?

Hincher

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:07 pm

the only thing I know for sure is, I tried to use a bellhousing from a Hyundai Elantra 1.8 liter n/a engine as a pattern for one of my first attemps at building a bellhousing and it looked like a perfect match until I tried to bolt it up and it was physically too small

Possibly I am not talking about the same engine, I have been wrong in the past and the Japanese constantly amaze me with suttle detail changes, they are not well known for not standardizing anything ( mostly Honda)
They do that so aftermarket vendors can not make parts with broad coverage and make money off thier products ( complete opposite of Volkswagon bettles)
If the spacer plate bolt pattern matches , then I guess it must fit

dsmpilot · Post by **dsmpilot** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:50 pm

Why am I salivating?........ VERY nice Bill!! I gotta start building the engine soon.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 3:11 pm

Its nice to see you again Captain

I got more work done but havent posted yet, I will be done on time for you this spring

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:21 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:the only thing I know for sure is, I tried to use a bellhousing from a Hyundai Elantra 1.8 liter n/a engine as a pattern for one of my first attemps at building a bellhousing and it looked like a perfect match until I tried to bolt it up and it was physically too small

Possibly I am not talking about the same engine, I have been wrong in the past and the Japanese constantly amaze me with suttle detail changes, they are not well known for not standardizing anything ( mostly Honda)
They do that so aftermarket vendors can not make parts with broad coverage and make money off thier products ( complete opposite of Volkswagon bettles)
If the spacer plate bolt pattern matches , then I guess it must fit

The 1.5, 1.8, and 2.0 all have the same bolt pattern on the tranny side- but the later 2 have smaller inner diameters of the ball housing-AKA, a turbo clutch/flywheel wont fit inside it.

As for the T-56-good work! Get on with it-Im trying to go 200+at Maxton. I need more gear!

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:57 am

Bill, What about the 4g61 motor??
Is that one the same as the rest or do I need ot look further?

I brought that piece (colt turbo) home yesterday and it turns over but the wires to the AFM are a gone and don't know or see any un-connected wires laying around.
I was hoping to use the block and such to start fitting into that civic.
E

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:52 am

The 4g61 has the same bolt pattern as the 4g63.

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 12:47 pm

Thanks for being patient with me guys..
I've tons to learn in a short time. But as long as this site stays open I feel competent about this swap.

Bill, what has been hashed out for a flywheel/flexplate with this bellhousing?
And being GM, I would guess that the trans side of the bellhousing will only be for the T56?? or will others (OLDER) work?
Thanks

sss510 · Post by **sss510** » Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:56 pm

An adaptor plate was made by a friend of mine to fit a T56 to a Nissan/Datsun L28 6 cyl.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2071134

The T56 is a very strong transmission in stock form (97 LSI Camero) it survived over 200 very hard drag launches on slicks before being rebuilt with a Rockland Standard Gear 750 rwh drag kit.T56 kits are avalable to handle over a thousand HP.

http://www.rsgear.com/GM.asp

A 10,000 RPM tripple disc clutch is being used in my application. I know they make a flywheel for the 2.6l Mitsubishi engines and are very well versed in multi plate clutches.

http://www.10000rpm.com/

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:47 pm

im new here, but i just had to sign up when i saw this thread! how are these bellhousings coming along(narrow 4G63 to T56)? what are you thinking of charging for them? which flywheel/starter did you design them to work with? Midwest Turbo has a conversion flywheel by Fidanza for swapping T56's to 4G6X motors. it uses the stock Mitsu starter; will this bellhousing work with that flywheel/starter?

i'll keep an eye on the forums, or you can email me at: valiant_diomedes@yahoo.com.

i might be breaking new ground with the swap i am planning. i am planning to swap a 4G63 into my '88 Ram 50. i want to put a T56 behind it because i know the stock KM132 5 speed wont last long at all. after some measuring, i am also fairly positive the 8.8 rear out of an Explorer will fit under the truck, and if i find one '95-up, many came with disc brakes, 31 spline axles, and 4.10 gears. i've even found a way to switch the front hub assemblies to the stock Ford 5x4.5" bolt pattern as well. anyone ever heard of anyone doing this kind of swap?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:14 pm

I have some more work done on the T 56 set up but I have been re designing the W 55-59 set ups, I will be posting some pic's soon
I built more bellhousing mounting bolts into the W 55 design and I am cleaning up some work on the R 154 set up, plus I am working on the remote CAs system and a dry sump oiling set up
and its time for me to have my tax work done sooooooooooo I been working way late to get done

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:19 pm

anyone know what the difference is between a t56 from the lt1 gm car vs the t56 from a viper? i can pick up the viper t56 for 4 bucks witha pro 50 short shifter. but only if i can use it

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:10 am

they are all different dimensions. imput shafts and bellhousings are different. shifter locations are different.

this is an invaluable diagram:

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:12 am

Bill Hincher wrote:I have some more work done on the T 56 set up but I have been re designing the W 55-59 set ups, I will be posting some pic's soon
I built more bellhousing mounting bolts into the W 55 design and I am cleaning up some work on the R 154 set up, plus I am working on the remote CAs system and a dry sump oiling set up
and its time for me to have my tax work done sooooooooooo I been working way late to get done

and that is cool, the swap wont even star until this spring/summer, and i planned on collecting parts for the T56 swap this coming winter....

turbosigma · Post by **turbosigma** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:20 am

That's what I was after Gentleman Rogue.

just need to work out if any of the local Holden / Ford that we use here will fit.

and just to clarify - what model number should I be keeping an eye out for.

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:29 am

turbosigma wrote:and just to clarify - what model number should I be keeping an eye out for.

talking to me? im kinda lost here...

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Fri Feb 08, 2008 2:18 pm

I would love to have a wideblock adapter like that to a powerglide.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 8:49 pm

repost of deleted pics

While I am waiting for the new W 55's to be cast , I thought I would catch up on the T 56 set up

I wanted to make sure and include the internal throw out bearing option

I have been adding the extra sheet metal work to ensure a positive ,consistant wall thickness

I constantly test fit as I go. I make changes constantly and sometimes I like it and some times I dont , so I continue to change things until they fit and look good

the bellhousing bolt pattern is laid out to offer the best secure attachment I can all the way from the engine bolt pattern and into the trans bolt pattern

for those guys who want, the standard Mits first gen clutch hardware will work fine

starting to look like a bellhousing

this is how the bellhousing would look without the internal throw bearing

this is how the either one of the two bearings will offered, how you want it built is how I will machined

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:47 pm

this is for narrow block, correct? any plans to do a wide block/t56? i'd be in for at least 2, maybe 4. with internal throw out bearings

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:51 pm

yeah , DJ and Kane have been helping me with parts on the wide block, I been shopping for a block so I can find a good way to build the side supports I like to use, so the bellhousing has 8 attachment bolts instead of 4
I am leaning towards building an oil pan that could be used in the dry sump system and be part of the lower bellhousing mounting system. It would also have a reversable front or rear sump for wet sump systems
I gotta get some intake manifold work done to, so I can move the CAS system with a front mounted throttle body

I am going to bed

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:22 pm

You should see this engine plate we got on an auto truck.. or maybe it was a van. Its about 1/4 thick steel and the torque converter plate had a 1/4" spacer between it and the crank... from the factory.