Destroker 2.1L Technical Thread

All the oily, spinning bits

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DJpowerHaus
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Destroker 2.1L Technical Thread

Post by DJpowerHaus »

I wanted to start a thread about 2.1L engines just to have a good search result if anyone came looking for it. I'd like to discuss the costs and math of such an engine combo.

If you're not familiar with the 2.1L let me give you a brief primer.

The 2.1L 4G6x is made by putting a 2.0L (88mm stroke) crank in a high deck height 4G64 block. The 4G64 block has a 6mm higher deck height and when used with "stroker" pistons which have a 6mm higher offset wrist pin, allows for the use of 162mm long rods opposed to the 150mm rods of a 4G64 or 4G63. This length is due to the 6mm offset + the 6mm higher deck height (6+6 = 12 = 162-150). A longer rod leads to a better "rod ratio" of 1.84:1 which reduces stress on the pistons/rods/crank/bearings.

Rod Ratios:
2.1L = 1.84
2.4L = 1.5
2.0L = 1.7

This helps to rev the engine VERY high. Most sources claim 11,000rpms as the redline.

Of course turning these revs is not particularly easy. All things need to be accounted for such as the valvetrain, cooling, lubrication and a transmission that can put it to use. Turning 11,000rpm and making power at these revs are two totally different things. Power will be made by closely examining all aspects of the system. Port size, cams, intake runner length, exhaust manifold design will all need to work together to make power at high revs.

It might be best to see what Honda guys are doing and just copy them.

====================================================

My plan is a bit of an aside, but I'd like to talk about it anyway :-D. I'm going to build a 2.1L non turbo motor. Bill is working on a dry sump system that I hope to use. I think with 11,000rpms controlling windage should gain me quite a bit of power. I'll also use ITBs on this engine and coil on plug.

My last engine was built to be cheap and powerful and using my savings not doing tons of little things put into things like fuel management, cams and a turbo. With this engine I'm not going to make as much power, but I'd like to just have a wild non-turbo motor paying attention to all the small things like windage, valvetrain, porting, intake runner length, header design, etc. One of the biggest challenges is going to be finding cams that will make NON-TURBO power at these revs.

I plan on building the bottom end first and sorting out the ITBs, exhaust, cooling, first at normal (<8000rpm) engine speeds. Once I get that sorted out I will focus on the head and making power. I probably won't start this project until 2009, but it should be fun to plan until then.
Last edited by DJpowerHaus on Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
Bill Hincher
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Post by Bill Hincher »

we will build our own cam profile and have Comp Cams build them for us, I have the right programs to get the right numbers, you are on the money in the direction you are taking on the engine build
pick out the trans you want and we will build the bellhousing too
DJpowerHaus
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Post by DJpowerHaus »

Working with the calculators on: http://www.slowgt.com/Calc2.htm and else where, I'm going to try and calculate as much as I can. Click on the images if they look garbled.

piston speed:
88mm stroke at 8000rpm is 23.467 m/s
88mm stroke at 8500rpm is 24.93 m/s
88mm stroke at 9000rpm is 26.4 m/s

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Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
89coltgt
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Post by 89coltgt »

This sounds very interesting. I have conteplated something similar in the past, but didn't consider all of the little things needed to make it work-and work well. What itbs are you planning to use Mike?
DJpowerHaus
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Post by DJpowerHaus »

I am going to use 46mm ITBs from a 98-99 GSXR. 46mm is probably too small, but I'd like to play with these anyway. They are the same size as the older Hayabusa ones which have shrunken over the years. Not aware of a bigger ITB setup that uses separate castings that I can get for under $100. Separate castings make it easier to space them out. Old Colt had done this for one of his engines before and I'll do my best to copy it.
Make/Model: GSXR 750
Year: -98, -99
Number of Tb: 4
Inside Diameter: 46mm
Center-Center (left to right from behind): 80-80-80mm
Overall Length: 91mm
Outside Diameter (intake): 54mm
Outside Diameter (filter): 54mm
Separate casting: Yes
Injector Make/Model: Keihin,
Flow Rate (45psi/100%): 240cc
Fuel Rail Inside Diameter:
Additional Info: No sec. throttles.
Other than that there are 50mm 300ZX throttle bodies, but they would be much more complicated to design. I had a guy in TX that I sent 2 of them to. He gave up on it and said he'd send them back but hasn't yet.
Image
Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
DJpowerHaus
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Post by DJpowerHaus »

I am probably going to use a 95-96 DSM head so I can mount the cam sensor on the front and have smaller ports to work with. I think for my non-turbo setup the small ports will be big enough for the 300hp I'd like to get. Might also have more material to play with when porting. If there is a higher compression casting of this style head, I'd like to know about it.

Might even be able to trade a DSM guy for a 1G big port head.

Also, with my "dinosaur" thread, using a later "backwards" 4G64/3 combo might be an option as well.
Image
Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
89coltgt
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Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:50 am
Location: Ste Genevieve, MO

Post by 89coltgt »

Afaik, the only head castings that will bump up the compression will be the 1.8/1,6 heads, but they both have the cas on the rear of the head. Will a 2g cas work with a 1g ecu?
89coltgt
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Post by 89coltgt »

I am pretty sure they are a 2g style head. Here are some pics of an old prototype itb setup for the 4g63:

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http://www.haywardperformance.com/gallery.htm
jeffball610
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Post by jeffball610 »

I'm pretty sure that Magnus offers custom pistons and rods for 2.1L engines. Also, if you really want to do some work on this, why not build something that can compete in the All Motor class and show the stupid Honduhs that DSMs can do it NA style as well. The 2G head is a good casting, and with custom pistons you can get whatever compression ratio you need. You might look into some 13:1 or something and run Methanol or whatever they run. Also with the 2G head, you can still run a 1G can angle sensor or it should be able to run on a 1G ECU if you needed to. However, with 10k rpm runs, you will definitely need a stand alone just to map those speeds for fuel and spark. Check with Bushur, Shepherd and everyone that runs high rpm engines. I think Brent Rau uses a 2.1L and with such a small operation like Osofast, they might share some info with you. On the tranny side, not only is the RX7 tranny good, HKS and OS Gilken built racing units for them. At about $10k a pop they definitely aren't cheap, but it's an option.
DJpowerHaus
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Post by DJpowerHaus »

My Autronic can deliver spark at full power up to 18,000rpm even on a V8 so it should be able to handle it on a 4 cylinder. The motorcycle coil on plug should be find up to 13,400rpm and that's on a wasted spark system. My CDI is 4 channel so they should be good over 26000rpm.

I was planning on going with the RX7 transmission. There are some people on the Autronic board that have some tips on making the transmission better at high revs. Its important not to get tunnel vision with transmissions (pun!). A NASCAR 4 speed road race transmission is relatively cheap and can take 11,000rpm as well. Not sure what transmissions can function at 11,000rpm, but it would be interesting to find out what is out there.

Hopefully people will make progress with that 10000rpm.com clutch company. Not sure of any alternatives other than something custom.

Gearing should also be discussed. This engine would be a perfect opportunity to use some really short final drive gears. I'm not sure which rear end I'll go with or even what I'll put it into. If going with a Starion I'd be sure to go with a 4.6:1 final drive opposed to the 3.5:1. A non-turbo Starion would confuse a whole lot of people on SQC, but it would probably be faster than most cars on there. I'm still planning on putting it in an old Colt, but until I locate a good one I dont want to get too specific.
Image
Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
89coltgt
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Posts: 584
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:50 am
Location: Ste Genevieve, MO

Post by 89coltgt »

An old colt with a na setup would be pretty damn slick. Mike, where can we source the older gsxr itbs? I checked ebay, only to find the newer units.
DJpowerHaus
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Post by DJpowerHaus »

I'm still looking myself. I sometimes see them come up on ebay. I'm actually trying to bid on a set now. I bid to $75 but somebody has outbid me already. I'm in no HUGE rush. I might just let it go and wait for another to come up.
Image
Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
DJpowerHaus
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Posts: 1782
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:24 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD
Contact:

Post by DJpowerHaus »

specifics of the ITBs are a little off topic for this thread if you ask me. This thread is about the destroker 2.1L.

Talk of port size and length for making power in the high revs is more than welcome though.
Image
Getting the engine bolted in is about 10% of the way there.
The next 80% can go quickly with help and skill.
That last 10% takes about as long as the 90% that came before it.
marck_c
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Post by marck_c »

I am doing a similar project.

4G61T Block 83.5mm Bore/75.0 Stroke (1625cc)
4G63 Big Valve Head
Custom Ross 9.1:1 Forge Pistons
Crower 150mm 1st Gen Rods
Moroso 3 stage Dry sump Pump
Custom Steel Dry Sump Oil Pan
Crower Stage 3 Cams
1mm Oversize Stainless Steel Valves
Crower Valve Springs and Ti Retainers
Forced Performance FP3052 Turbocharger
Extrude Honed Stock 1st Gen Intake Manifold
Evo 8 Throttle Body
Evo 8 Intercooler
Haltech E6X ECU
RC Engineering 720cc Injectors

This is for a tubeframed Road Race Evo
Rod Ratio is in excess of 2:1
Planned Whp is 380-400 at between 9000-10000 rpm
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