Billhousing? What about a cast top mount Header

isnowi · Post by **isnowi** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:02 am

Why not a portmatched plate with 2 sets of bolt holes, 1 set in the stock location, and 1 set rotated. Simple and easy.

I made one like this when i was toying with the idea of turboing my lancer, cost me a dozen beers to get it cut, did all the drilling myself.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:19 am

No problem Kane,

Cory ( 91turboGSX ) had asked me about making one and I still want to do his after we finish working out the bellhousings, DJ had something in mind too, so if we all get it together and get it right we will get'r done

I got one more prototype casting to do with the bellhousing and then we can get to the exhaust, I still havent forgotten the intake manifold either

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:26 am

Build it just like you want it and I will be glad to get it cast.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:48 am

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 9:51 pm

The real question is... which turbo flange...

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Wed Feb 07, 2007 10:51 pm

it fits fine in my little ass colt withe the turbo reversed. i want a cheap T4 flanged cst manny with the external gate flange on the opposite side. do that and ill buy it for sure.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:35 am

use some 3/8' plate to make the angle brace, cut the exhaust out like a flange at the cylinder head, make a universal tubo outlet that could accept any rectangular flange with any adaptor and place the turbo forward or back to where you want it, then just bend the tubing and weld it in place and you dont need a casting, just a couple of diagonal supports down to the blockand up to the angle plate, then trim off what you dont need, save some wieght and make it strong ' like bull'

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:15 am

Bill Hincher wrote:

use some 3/8' plate to make the angle brace, cut the exhaust out like a flange at the cylinder head, make a universal tubo outlet that could accept any rectangular flange with any adaptor and place the turbo forward or back to where you want it, then just bend the tubing and weld it in place and you dont need a casting, just a couple of diagonal supports down to the blockand up to the angle plate, then trim off what you dont need, save some wieght and make it strong ' like bull'

i am very capable at putting together premade things. fabbing is not my territory. at all.

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:55 am

i like love the idea of a cast top mount t3. i have some ideas, but first i have to finish what i started. put the motor in the car and that will not happen untill next fall. racing is starting next month

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:11 pm

i was thinking, ouch that hurt. i would buy a top mount t3 manifold next fall/winter. i would like the idea of twin turbo, t25 on bottem and a t3 or t4 on top. i would prefer external waste gate, but that might not be possible.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:03 am

turbo,turbo,turbo, I love a turbo as much as the next guy, BUT! if you are gonna twin turbo an engine you are spending your money in the wrong place.
Turbo's have to wait for the exhaust/heat to produce boost.
Supercharging however comes on RIGHT NOW!
If you want good dyno numbers with lots of torque, using the same boost numbers and you wanna drift, the best money spent is on supercharging

It would be just as easy to cast a manifold for that

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:00 am

Turbo's are used by manufacturers because they are cheaper then blowers, but when you start using twin turbo's you have lost the financial advantage. Superchargers overcome crankshaft power losses early and provide boost sooner then turbo's.
Ford thunderbird SC came to mind
Toyota previa came with superchargers
GM uses superchargers
Its just an idea, one of those units would work well with a 4G63 , find them used, do the math and make a system.

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:50 am

Bill Hincher wrote:Turbo's are used by manufacturers because they are cheaper then blowers, but when you start using twin turbo's you have lost the financial advantage. Superchargers overcome crankshaft power losses early and provide boost sooner then turbo's.
Ford thunderbird SC came to mind
Toyota previa came with superchargers
GM uses superchargers
Its just an idea, one of those units would work well with a 4G63 , find them used, do the math and make a system.

yeah those are all great examples. of really slow cars. please name me one factory supercharged car (besides the 03-04 cobra which was purposefuly built to be fast) that can run 12s on the stock or nearly stock setup. i cant think of any. now almost every turbo car ever made can be made fast with really simple shit done to it. im tired so im not gonna get into examples you all know how to use the internet so if you dont believe me search.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:11 pm

I agree that superchargers make power and torque immediately, but turbos make full boost sooner and longer. Yes, GM does use superchargers, but the new Sky and Solstice will come with turbos. Not that I could ever fit in one to see how it drives, but that's one example. The best solution to any boost application is to match it to your needs and goals. I can make 400hp with a "bolt on" turbo on the 4G63. It would be hard to make 20+psi on a supercharger and get that boost at 4k RPMs. But for a V type motor where space is limited to run turbos and manifolds, a supercharger meets that need. Look at the 350Z. You can turbo that car, but a supercharger is much simpler in that case. But why are we arguing? Boost is awesome no matter your choice.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:25 pm

allllllllllllllllllllll I said was................if your gonna build a twin turbo system, you might look at a supercharger.

ok back to the turbo...........what model do you want me to install

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:43 pm

If I every boost the miata it will probably be a supercharger. Sometimes you just need to fill in some of that anemic low end.

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:02 pm

mattmartindrift wrote:
Bill Hincher wrote:turbo,turbo,turbo, I love a turbo as much as the next guy, BUT! if you are gonna twin turbo an engine you are spending your money in the wrong place.
Turbo's have to wait for the exhaust/heat to produce boost.
Supercharging however comes on RIGHT NOW!
If you want good dyno numbers with lots of torque, using the same boost numbers and you wanna drift, the best money spent is on supercharging

It would be just as easy to cast a manifold for that

with current turbo technology the trend is however starting to shy towards turbos. Look at every successful forced induction road race car, they're all turbo. Audi, Porsche, old F1, CART, etc. etc.

My car made full boost @ around 3,000 rpms, and I would never be any lower in the RPMS, unless something went awry. Secondly a supercharger is robbing tons of power in that RPM band as opposed to the "free" power of a turbo (I know it's not totally free).

I do however, agree that twin turbos are rarely appropriate for 4 cylinders, if ever. But when discussing large displacement 6-8 cylinders, especially in V configurations twin turbo is the jam.

That coupled with the new variable vane technology you can spool turbos extremely quickly, and actively change the A/R so as to not run out of "umph" up top:

Close to zero lag, no need for a wastegate and can make tons of power up top.

chrysler used those on 2.2 turbos in the 80's they made some power but went boom my buddy was into the chrysler turbo cars

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:03 pm

Wait. Didn't someone come up with a turbo system for the EVOVIII? I know Buschur has one. That turbo faces the other way. And no, it's not the stock EVO bolt patern that would require the EVO ex. man. However, if I remember right, that should bolt up to the DSM head too.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:22 pm

How do you remeber all that stuff Jeff? I can't remeber what I had for lunch

My memory is soooooooooo bad , I sent my DNA to the James Brown funeral instead of the Anna Nichole Smith case !

Fortunatly, they found my DNA on the stamp I had licked when I had sent her the child support payment

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:46 pm

first off, new turbos with varible ar. is a god sent. i want one, i need one.
second dj, what are you thinking the miati motor, the bp is based on a turbo motor from the uk. it comes from the mazda lazer. it has 180 hp and uses a vh20 turbo.(same as the turbo coupe). you can pick one up for 500-800 on ebay, or your local import shop. super charging it would be like puting a stock n/a g54b in a starion. if you want a head to pratice porting or some thing. let me know. i will give you one next to nothing. those heads are so cool, no rocker arms, just cam, lifter, valve. that is it.
third ok twin turbo is not that practical for race, but i think it would be cool. how about compound forced induction. super charge the first 10 or so pounds 1500 to 4000 rpm and a huge turbo for the rest. im go to barely be able to afford the cast top mount t3 manifold and turbo. so that is what im going to set my goals for.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:05 am

Twins... Compound. The goal is to REDUCE complexity (things that can break) and REDUCE cost.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:58 pm

Yeah man.. 8 pistons instead of 4... pssshhhhh. I'm just going to make 4 pistons that move really really fast.

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:33 pm

yes you are right, the cost and complexity are to much, but the spooge factor is awsome.

and that is a great quote. i have to remeber that one.

lonestarion · Post by **lonestarion** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:13 am

HMMMMMMMMM, why not run a compound turbo set up? i know this is mainly on deisel engines but i'm pretty sure it can be done on a 4 cyl. gas burner, AND produce just as much if not more than suppercharger or even a larger turbo.

for those who arent familir with a compound set up, heres a little info on it.

exhaust drives the primary turbo, then the cold side of the primary drives the secondary turbo which inturn feeds boost into the engine. i havent seen any of these setups on an engine but i do know they exhist, look in deisel power mag. just wanted to throw that out there for you TT freaks as a new unchartered avenue.

ShaggyZ · Post by **ShaggyZ** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 1:55 am

lonestarion wrote:HMMMMMMMMM, why not run a compound turbo set up? i know this is mainly on deisel engines but i'm pretty sure it can be done on a 4 cyl. gas burner, AND produce just as much if not more than suppercharger or even a larger turbo.

I apologize if I sound like a jerk when I say I think that would be totally ridiculous for anyone running a 4G or MOST gas engines. Even for diesels it's pretty silly. All of this especially considering the wonderful

turbocharger and engine technology kicking today. No thanks!

Just get me a cast, top-mount, T3 flanged setup and I'll be wearing my sunglasses at night... er... uh... I'll be good.

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 2:31 am

lonestarion wrote: for those who arent familir with a compound set up, heres a little info on it.

exhaust drives the primary turbo, then the cold side of the primary drives the secondary turbo which inturn feeds boost into the engine. i havent seen any of these setups on an engine but i do know they exhist, look in deisel power mag. just wanted to throw that out there for you TT freaks as a new unchartered avenue.

Actually, exhaust drives both turbos, you just have one smaller turbo that is feeding the air intake of the larger turbo for faster spool up. Then, as the load rises and the larger turbo begins to spool, it adds even farther air to the engine (compounding the boost).

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:27 am

when i first said compound forced induction i ment supercharger/ turbo. like a detroit deisel. and that is not silly, that is how they are made. it is a two stroke deisel.

exhaust driven twin turbos. one smal and the second big. well....... too each his own. its a spooge factor. but i dont think that is the definition of compounding the boost.

exhaust drives the primary turbo, then the cold side of the primary drives the secondary turbo which inturn feeds boost into the engine. i havent seen any of these setups on an engine but i do know they exhist, look in deisel power mag. just wanted to throw that out there for you TT freaks as a new unchartered avenue

hummmmm........i dont know it might work. i want to know more. build it and tell me more. im interested.

other than that i want a top mount t3. and that will make me happy.

if any one want to move to wa state let me know. i will help you find a house and then i will have money to spend on all of this spendy stuff.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:21 am

Peak horsepower on a desiel engine comes on at a much lower RPM then a gas engine and that is why its to there advantage

technolegy for the gas engine turbo has far surpassed the use of a compound set up at a cheaper cost

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:05 am

carguyf545 wrote:when i first said compound forced induction i ment supercharger/ turbo. like a detroit deisel. and that is not silly, that is how they are made. it is a two stroke deisel.

exhaust driven twin turbos. one smal and the second big. well....... too each his own. its a spooge factor. but i dont think that is the definition of compounding the boost.

Actually, the old Detroit 2 strokes were considered Naturally asperated if they did not have a turbo, the blower is a must have for a 2 stroke Diesel to operate. 2 Stroke diesels don't have intake valves, all the valves in the head are for exhaust. These 2 stroke diesels have "tangangital ports" in the cylinder walls that the blower (normally at 1-1.5 psi) would push air into, when the piston was far enough down to open them up.

I was incorrect about the compounding of boost, partrially. I wrote it was the small turbo feeding the larger one, but it's actually the opposite. Here is a link

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:48 pm

Not a DSM manifold, but thought it looked real simple and could be made to work well.

http://fiveoneoh.com/big.jpg

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 6:33 pm

are these turbo's water cooled? how ya gonna cool them if they are above the coolant level?

just askin

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:55 pm

the cylinder head is still below the coolant resivoir as in all closed systems, but if the turbo sticks up above the resivoir it will trap air that cant be bled off

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:33 am

no, i dont think hydraulic's work that way.

If you look at high mount turbo's ,they are on drag racers, that don't have the same heat problems of a street car.

I wonder if part of DJ's heat problems are because he has trapped air in the turbo cooling system

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:13 pm

Holsets do not have water cooling.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:54 pm

If I remember right, you want the highest part of the cooling system to be the fill cap. I plan to have my cap on the radiator itself. It "should" be higher than the engine and turbo. I'm not going to be running a manifold like this for a while if I run one like it at all. I just thought it might be relavant to the thread.

Also, you need to consider if the turbo you have can run "upside down". Most DSM turbos have different oil fittings on each side of the center section. You would need a Garrett or other aftermarket turbo so you can clock the center section to run with the exhaust inlet upside down.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:04 pm

Most turbos including Mitsubishi turbos can be clocked independent of the turbine and compressor housings.

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:59 pm

dont water cool it. i have seen turbos that should be water cooled, but werent. the turbos held together a couple of years (mind you it was an ebay junk yard deal).

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:31 am

an oil pump is a ' positive displacement ' pump, it consists of two gears , compressing the oil under pressure and displacing the oil in an 'open 'curcuit to where ever its routed.

a water pump is a centrifical pump, consisting of a single impeller that moves the coolant in a 'closed' curcuit to where ever its routed.

the oil pump can move oil as high as you want it, because its pressurized, but the water pump cannot because it isnt pressurized , it is only moving the coolant like a boat propeller moves a boat.
the pressure in a coolant system come from the expansion of the coolant being heated, not from the pump

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:34 pm

Yes, I understand the difference of pumps. A turbo is also a single impeller pump, however i've seen them reach 70+ psi of pressure and that is a task considering air is compressible and coolant is NOT!

no Matt, air is NOT compressable in its natural state, thats why airplane wings work

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:30 pm

Justine wrote:I agree that the dinosaur roots blower is garbage for a high performance application, but a twin screw setup is hard to beat.

Garbage?? Those dinosaurs help add power the worlds quickest accelerating 8,000 hp machines on the planet, not sure if I would consider them garbage.

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:34 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:air is NOT compressable in its natural state, thats why airplane wings work

Please explain this comment. Air is a gas, and from what I learned in grade school, gases are compressable. Liquid, on the other hand, is not. This is, to my under standing, why engines can compress air for combustion, but they tend to bend rods when trying to compress water from some moron trying to scuba dive his new car in the local flooded neighborhood.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:51 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incompressible_flow

what does this have to do with water pumps? well, if you had a positive pump ( like an oil pump) driving the coolant, it would simply force its way past the thermostat and you would not be able to control the coolant temperature.

Turbo chargers and superchargers are NOT positive pumps ( such as an air compressor), they are centrifical pumps, they move and organize the air , but the air refuses to compress until after it is in the cylinder

Just clap your hands together, what do you hear? the noise you hear is the air escaping from your hands trying to compress air that refuses to be compressed

ShaggyZ · Post by **ShaggyZ** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:17 am

when nerds fight...

Actually, I find it all very interesting. NOW BUILD ME A CAST TOP MOUNT T3 MANIFOLD THAT WILL ONLY COST $100!!

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:51 pm

seriously

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:20 pm

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:15 pm

Old Bill , definatly not your average ' nerd' material.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:19 am

I remeber my first beer, Smog

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:35 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:

definetly reminds me of Louis Skolnick from revenge of the nerds

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:50 pm

you mean the one on the left?