Revisions on the Racecar - Suggestions?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:45 pm

Me, mr. Lucky has just done some testing on the racecar after last weekends event. Doesnt look good:

Compression (1-4 in psi):
115, 55, 145, 149

Engine is coming out and head is coming off... again. Maybe I'll learn something about getting an engine to run one of these days. Still not sure exactly what's leaking but its coming out one way or another.

Anyways... I've been day dreaming ever since that Group Purchase post I made. I want to do some modifications to my setup so that it would be easier for StarQuest bolt in swaps.

I want to minimally move the water outlet from the back of the head to the front and use a truck water pump so I don't need that big water pipe under the exhaust manifold. I might also use a 95-96 style cam/crank trigger on the front of the engine, but with my setup its not a priority.

Anything else I should try?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:13 pm

Mr. Lucky
if that is the same motor you have put so many headgaskets on, make sure to use a good 'bottom ' tap and clean the threads of the head bolts, and measure the cylinder head hieght, see if you need to shim the head bolts with a washer to make sure you are getting a good ' clamping' with your head bolts, sometimes after you mill the head the bolts will torque against the bottom of the bolt hole instaed of clamping down the head, which gives you bad readings with your torque wrench

tumuchNOS · Post by **tumuchNOS** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 11:34 am

DJpowerHaus wrote:Me, mr. Lucky has just done some testing on the racecar after last weekends event. Doesnt look good:

Compression (1-4 in psi):
115, 55, 145, 149

Engine is coming out and head is coming off... again. Maybe I'll learn something about getting an engine to run one of these days. Still not sure exactly what's leaking but its coming out one way or another.

Anyways... I've been day dreaming ever since that Group Purchase post I made. I want to do some modifications to my setup so that it would be easier for StarQuest bolt in swaps.

I want to minimally move the water outlet from the back of the head to the front and use a truck water pump so I don't need that big water pipe under the exhaust manifold. I might also use a 95-96 style cam/crank trigger on the front of the engine, but with my setup its not a priority.

Anything else I should try?

That is exactly the set up myself and dirtboy have. I made a template out of a used water pump so that you know where to grind on the truck waterpump in order to clear the timing belt and the tensioner. I will take a pic of it if you like and post it here. You will also have a small hole that faces rearward from the truck pump. I just went to the store and got a freeze plug that was close and JB welded it in there. That was a long time ago and I have had no problems racing or cruising. If you are running a turbo that requires you to cool it, you can weld an AN fitting to this hole and run your coolant line from it, to the turbo, and then back to a small fitting into your block off plate in the back of the head (where the original thermostat housing was).
I still have my ECU temp and Guage temp (electric autometer) sending units in the back of the head for consistancy. You will have to position them just so to clear all of the casting flash inside the water jacket when you build your block off plate. I can post pics of the set up in my car as soon as the cage is done if you like.

OH, and try all of the stuff mentioned above when putting on your head, except try an 8 step torque sequence with a good lube (ARP is what I use). When you get your head surfaced this time, go to a different machine shop. The most expensive is usually the best, and double check it when you get it back with a straight edge and a feeler guage, in a cross style pattern.

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:44 pm

i lost track of what water pump i used. i had 4 and only one worked. i had to grind it to clear the timing belt.

sorry to hear about your motor. same thing just happened to my friends civic when the waste gate line fell off

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 2:08 pm

I do have a truck water pump in the shed that I got with my wideblock. I'll use this to experiment on and I'll just get a new (remanufactured) pump when I put it back together.

Anyone know the Mitsubishi Part number for the small water pipe that goes from the pump to the heater core? I'm blocking off my pump with a freeze plug like tumuchNOS recommended, but I'll still need the number for the kit I still plan on putting together. I would REALLY like to see the template if you could post it up. If you can't post it email it to me: mike@projectzerog.com

I still have a spare 4G64 head gasket to look at. Will I need to modify the headgasket along with the head to open up the flow in the back?

Hopefully the pipe I'll press into the freeze plug is the same O.D. as the stock radiator inlet. That will make finding a hose much easier.

Need to make an injector test rig as well this weekend. I'll post everything I find. I'm pretty sure this was a tuning issue and not an assembly issue this time around.

ZedYakuza · Post by **ZedYakuza** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:01 pm

What brand of HG are you using? I've heard of issues with the felpro and topline stuff.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:43 am

Its the pistons

Looks to be only 1 of them though. Guess I'll have to get a set and if it happens down the road and I have 1 left over I'll be able to piece together another set. Maybe someone could track down some orphans for me?

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:32 am

I have not had a chance to get in here for a bit.
It is common for detonation in #2 cylinder. Why #2 I do not know but this is the fourth engine I have seen with a hot #2. Was the sparkplug loose in that cylinder when you got to it?
In your case you just found out what aftermarket intake gaskets cost.
A few recommendations from me,
Use the factory steel shim intake gasket on these heads. I have not seen a fiber gasket survive. I have not seen a factory gasket fail.
Also do not have your tuner go for the last little HP, that is fine for drag racers but a track car will not live.
Leave the timing conservative.

You should be able to buy one piston, just go back where you got them, Did you get a spec sheet with your pistons? That should have there weight for them to match yours.
If not have them make 5 of them for you.

Charlie

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 2:09 pm

I'm pretty sure this is the style of the OEM intake gasket. I haven't seen a metal OEM intake gasket, only exhaust.

Also, this is not a MAFS metered system. It uses a MAP sensor. Would a leak in this spot cause a rich condition under boost? Could this heat have occurred due to a lean 2100rpm idle?

Spark plugs were borderline too tight.. or maybe it was just because it was hot when I pulled them. The tune was not to the limit. When we tuned the car we made sure it was very conservative. Problem is... things may have changed since the dyno. Injectors may have been clogged, new fuel filter may have changed things as well. I also am only running 1 fuel pump now opposed to 2.

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 3:08 pm

Hi Mike,

I do not think I have any new gaskets sitting here but here is a pic of a used steel intake gasket.
If I go in the files I should be able to pull up the part number but the dealer you work with should be able to find it.

A lean idle does not have enough energy to expand a piston that much, That happened under load.
Got so hot it froze we used to say.
There could be a few things that could be factors here, not having seen the build or know details I will touch on items that may or may not be revelant here.
The leaking intake can make for a different charge in each cylinder. For one thing it will cause a high idle, generally rough.
The idle mixture will not be right, depending on the system whether it will go lean or rich.
The intake gasket fails in cyl #1 first, the others will follow. A fibre gasket will not hold 12 psi boost for ever on these engines.
They are not reliable at 24PSI at all.

Block temperature, a low temp thermostat will cause the block to shrink when the power is reduced. If it shrinks faster than the piston does it can seize. It can also cause a block to be slow to come up to size.

Piston cooling, a blocked piston squirter will cause a hot cylinder.
God forbid if the engine was built without squirters, if so the piston clearances need to be increased.

Ring end gap, if a ring butts its' ends it makes heat real quick. Many possible causes for this to happen from cold thermostats, lack of piston cooling or improper end gaps.

Piston coatings, Heat shields, antifriction coats all affect the expansion of the piston.
when I first used a piston with a heatshield on the top we lost power, then put those pistons in a tighter bore and the power went up.
Those were back when we were running SCCA production and bought our pistons in .001 increments to keep the British dinosaurs alive.

I do not think your engine overheated persay. That was why I asked if a sparkplug had loosened, if they were all tight you did not soften the head.
If you had a good monitor of oil and water temp you would have seen a rise in the temps when the power went off.
Were you data logging?
The cylinder should clean up fine, I would say just put a piston in it and go but that is as long as the intake gasket failure was the cause of the seizure. I would jump to conclusion it was, but I am not there to say.

Cheers, Charlie
Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:20 pm

The really rich part would be a low MAP reading with the failed gasket.
This could be lean when in boost.

A low oil level should show up in the rod bearings first and as a high oil temp, if monitored.
I can not see the upper bearing shells to look for a color change.
There is very little oil needed or wanted on a cylinder wall but thinned down by fuel is not good.
If there were oil thinning, other than local washdown it should be noticeable on the dipstick at the time.

Any idea how the oil level was to low? Was this early in the event or late?

Another item, piston temperature can be checked by looking at the underside of the dish area. The oil bake will give an indication of peak temps incurred.

Charlie

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 4:35 pm

dammit.. Wiseco prices went from $433.69 to $445.99 in the last 2 weeks.

Also looks like us 4G64 guys just got some new piston choices!!!!

6 bolt stuff:
K564M865 - 86.50mm Std Bore -22cc dish 8.5-8.7 compression
K564M87 - 87.00mm .020 overbore -22cc dish 8.5-8.7 compression
TBA M865 - 86.50 Std Bore w/ 1400HD .225" wall tool steel pins -14cc dish 9.7:1 compression

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 5:33 pm

This was not a good weekend. i hope he takes the time to port the front cover and filter assembly before re-assembling the engine this time.

At our track events oil down is not a good thing. Now at a drifting event is it good? Naa probably makes it damn inconsistent to drive.
Charlie

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:07 pm

hi Justine

we are taking job applications over here at Jap Auto

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:05 pm

Would I need to port the oil filter house if I'm running the engine to a stock redline? Its not like I'm revving it to kingdom come on this engine.

I drained the oil from the engine into the same jug that I poured it from at the track. Looks very full.This was oil that had only been in the car for maybe 10 minutes of idling and a drive on the access road at the track. I imagine with the seized rings on cylinder 2 that lots of fuel would get in the engine. I had no clue why I was being red flagged when it happened. I thought someone was on course. So I just parked it and idled and eventually shut it down. I'm very surprised that there wasn't rod knock when I started it back up. I'll get pictures of the rod bearings in the morning. I'm replacing them anyways, but maybe they'll show something to the trained eyes that are on this site. I'll also look at the underside of the pistons. From what I remember they were as clean as the day I put them in there.

I think Justine is getting "raw fuel" confused with morning condensation.

No oil squirters, but we did give it very loose bore tolerances to account for this which probably saved this engine from total annihilation. Ring end gap was large too. We knew it'd be getting hot and were willing to give up a little blowby for longevity.

Still have no logs. Damn serial interfaces!!!! I'll have to dig up an old desktop computer since my USB adapter failed.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:16 am

DJpowerHaus wrote:
I think Justine is getting "raw fuel" confused with morning condensation.

No oil squirters, but we did give it very loose bore tolerances to account for this which probably saved this engine from total annihilation. Ring end gap was large too. We knew it'd be getting hot and were willing to give up a little blowby for longevity.

Still have no logs. Damn serial interfaces!!!! I'll have to dig up an old desktop computer since my USB adapter failed.

STOP!
take deep breath! sit down, have another cup off coffee and a Pall Mall to ' calm' your nerves

YOU CAN NOT, CAN NOT, CAN NOT build this engine without squirters again! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I wont let you !
all your time and money is wasted and you are frustrated. You want to have some fun this summer , not break all the time

If your not running squirters, thats why you are blowing oil filters, the pressure required for the squirters is blowing out your oil seal at the filter.
Yeah the oil pump relief vavle should be adjusting the pressure, but the design of the relief valve included the oil pressure relief of spraying the oil up on the cylinder wall, that would explain erradic pressure problems.

You are over boosting the system and the intake gasket blew out, that in turn sucked air and burned up the pistons. you gotta have a blow off valve in the intake to handle over load between shifts on a stick shift, because when you let off throttle to shift gears it blows out gaskets.

The only way you could have fuel wash in a fuel injected engine is if the injectors are capable of moving that much fuel. are your injectors big enough to move enough fuel to ignite combustion and still blow down in the crankcase? I have only seen that happen on GMC trucks when overloaded. You should be able to smell fuel in the gas or you can send a sample of oil to http://www.wearcheck.com/services/ for testing. its how they test aircraft engines for wear, they tell you whats in the oil and why. Its good tool
Your giving me teenage flashbacks from 1969 and my 57 Ford Failane with a 390 engine ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:46 am

Old Colt wrote:
Block temperature, a low temp thermostat will cause the block to shrink when the power is reduced. If it shrinks faster than the piston does it can seize. It can also cause a block to be slow to come up to size.
.

block shrinkage??????????????? I gotta call you out on that one Charlie

thats right up there with letting the block ' season' by letting it rust up for a couple years before you machine the core

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:28 am

Bill,
I see you have never worked with a race engine shop that wants to know if an engine will be run with a 160 Tstat, no tstat or a hot one.
It matters more on larger bores and alloy cylinders.
It does matter to an engine builder that knows what he is doing.

To elaborate more on this, you apparently are not aware of hot machining of blocks. Where to block is kept above 170 during all machining.Great summer work.
Honing a choke in the bore? Where the top of the cylinder is smaller than the lower areas.
Are you aware that these engines require a hot start. The Cosworth DGV and Porsche GT3R are two that I have worked with, there are many others.
On these engines you pump heated coolant through the engine and pressurize the cooling system before starting the engine for the day.
Any thoughts why?
Have you ever been around general aviation on cold days to see the preheat needed to start a simple Lycoming or Continental?

And Bill, the intake gasket does not see a pressure spike during a shift!
That gasket is after the throttle plate. The spike is before the throttle.

Charlie

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:11 am

bullshit

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 12:21 pm

i guess its all in what you are doing

I have always set up engines to run @ 200 to 210 degrees, never 170, the cylinder head temp doesnt build enough heat for complete burn

I have never built a taper in a cylinder bore, that compensation is already built in the skirt of the piston, so you can control it

If you torque a cylinder head and crush a gasket on your extremely flat surface, you no longer have a flat surface ( thats why the gasket)

the small moving parts of the engine are going to move, swell and stretch ( yes stretch) at a much faster rate ( up and down the temperature range)
then the block ( thats why its cast iron)

and 37 years of marraige has taught me not to try and get the last word so you guys believe what you want

I got some candy in the glove box of my car justine

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:24 pm

Justine wrote:*perks her ears* candy? i like candy! i want some of this candy! *does the happy candy dance*

will the panel accept that ,Wink? 'does the happy candy dance?'

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! YES Wink, the candy will dance for Justine, however you will get a 15 year sentence for showing her your candy..................................back to YOU Wink!

your makin me feel a little ' unnecessary' about myself

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:12 am

Just trying to understand this.

Everyone seems to feel that the engine failure was under boost. Correct? Most people seem to believe that the leaking intake manifold gasket was the cause, it caused the cylinder(s) to go lean while under boost. Correct?

What I don't understand is, how does a Leaking intake gasket allow extra air in, under boost? To me, you would have experieced a rich mixture due to a lose of air excaping from the leaking gasket. Now, under idle, the car should have been surging fairly badly with suck a leak (Should have Vaccum at idle).

I personally wonder if there wasn't some kind of detonation while getting off of the throttle and while the intake valve was opened. This (to me) would explain the blown out intake gasket.

Only problem with that thery is that this is a recently rebuilt motor, and detonation normally stems from high load (not under closed throttle) or from carbon deposits that are still hot enough to glow, igniting the fuel air mixuture.

As for the Oil squirter coments from Bill. I have to disagree. This combo has worked for many before, w/o these issues. I personally don't feel that this has anything to do with DJ's problems.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:44 am

Robert Venable wrote:Just trying to understand this.

Everyone seems to feel that the engine failure was under boost. Correct? Most people seem to believe that the leaking intake manifold gasket was the cause, it caused the cylinder(s) to go lean while under boost. Correct?

As for the Oil squirter coments from Bill. I have to disagree. This combo has worked for many before, w/o these issues. I personally don't feel that this has anything to do with DJ's problems.

BLOW OFF VALVE

The 1-5/8" diameter valve, with high volume oval porting, has proven effective in releasing turbo damaging excessive manifold pressure when throttle plate closes. Valve is CNC machined from lightweight billet aluminum and complete with positive seal o-ring.

No Bob, your under the assumsion the engine is under boost at all times, the boost did the damage to the intake gasket at high RPM, and then the pistons drew in the air when the engine was not under boost condition, as in idling and low RMP

I assure you, if the oil squirters were not needed, Mitsubishi would have never spent the money involved, per engine, to include it in Turbo applications, it aint an option

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:03 pm

They didnt think it was worth it on the Starion...

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:37 pm

see how you are? there is always somebodyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

where are my carrots? anybodyseen my carrorts

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:46 pm

Oh.. sorry. I misread that. They did have the squirters on the Starion... no BOV though.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:13 pm

well.........lets get back to your motor........do you have a BOV installed?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:26 pm

send me the manifold and I will set it up while he builds the engine

honest injun.. this is NOT a test .....send it

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:32 pm

send me the manifold and I will set it up while he builds the engine

And what would you be doing to an intake manifold, installing a BOV after the throttle?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:01 pm

paint it with some rustoleum

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:14 pm

I thought that was frosting on that cake, it is Rust-oleum?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:47 pm

Rust-old-Colt-eum

Old Colt · Post by **Old Colt** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:18 pm

Thank you.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 6:25 pm

ya gotta admit , that right there was funny..................

dont worry about it, after I suffered the head injuries, it effected my spelling and reading skills

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:31 pm

I'd be more than happy to bring all these parts out to you Bill and get this engine back together in a weekend the "Bill" way

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:46 pm

oil squirters are nice to have. but the dyno chart that he posted, well did not make good power or tq. as to the goals set. i dont think he was makeing enough power to need oil squirters. my friends civic does not have oil squirters and it takes 15 pis with 450cc injectors and a big t3. he drives 120 miles a day. hondas can make power without oil squirters at that power level and not have a problem.

power level= mikes dyno chart.

carguyf545 · Post by **carguyf545** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:23 pm

i dont remember everything that was on that post, but i do remember ppl. saying that oil squirts would low the oil pressure. so that was the reason why ppl did not want to use them.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:11 pm

well, if you have the oil squirters blocked off and you use the same oil pump system as the squirter unit, you are going to divert all the oil pressure into the closed part of the oil system, like the main bearings, the rod bearings and cam bearings and then it should drain back down into the oil pan from where it exits in the cylinder head.

the squirters are going to provide another outlet to that pressure, the squirters are going to allow a certian percentage of oil pressure to spray into the open crankcase.

If your oil pump is designed to include squirters, then in its design the oil pressure will have to be greater than, non squirter equipped engines.

That extra pressure is what I feel is blowing off your oil filters.
I don't know why you would need over 35 lbs of oil pressure, there is no reason for it. ( I am talking non-squireter engines now) the cylinder head should have a restriction in it to slow the oil down and keep the oil in the lower end longer. and the pressure itself should be adjusted by the strength of the pressure relief valve in the oil pump

and this is what happens when it all goes wrong

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:29 pm

35 psi?? Are you kiding me? You think 35 psi is high?? You should read some of the moron's in some of the DSM forums bragging around maxing out a 100 psi oil pres. guage.

Personally, I don't like to go less than 5 psi per 1k rpms. I preffer to stay at about 7-10 psi per 1k if the motor will be ran at lower rpms constantly (2-3k).

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:37 pm

The 4G63 has a restricter of some sort on the back part of the head where the oil comes up from the bottom end. Check one out sometime

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:39 pm

the only time I have seen higher than 50 psi recomended was on Chrysler big blocks

when you move oil too fast you wash out bearings and dont provide the oil enough time to transfer heat out of the bearing area

when you raise the oil pressure, you also raise the oil temp, because you are compressing fluid. You are also maxing out the oil pump, well, it take horsepower to drive the oil pump.

so when you start compressing your oil and working the oil pump too hard , you rob horsepower

I agree with your numbers Bob, 5/10 psi per 1000 rpm, but still, how many times do you hold a street driven car at 7500 RPM? or on a drifter for that matter, 30 seconds, a minute ? how much oil pressure do you need?

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:23 am

I have to aggree with you on too high of an oil pres. being bad. I can't recall what manufacture it was (I think it was a diesel one-- probally Mack or International), but when I was in UTI I was told about a manufacture that had found that after 70 PSI of oil pres., you start to get the wash out of the babbett in the main bearings.

As for higher oil pres. I just came back from my Dealer training on the BMW E60 M5 (the new 400 Hp V-10 that has 500 hp at the touch of a button). Accroding to the information printed in my books, it will feed up to 5 bar of oil pres. to the oil filter. Thats 73.5 psi total, or 8.9 psi per 1000 rpm (redline is 8250).

On the other hand, I've also been told that prior to engine installation, this engine is spun to 14,000 rpms(where it supposedly made 760ish Horsepower during developement). This puts the oil pres at about 5.25 psi per 1000 rpms.

How much oil pres. do you need?? Enough to make sure that no matter what, you will always have atleast 110% of what your engine demands, to prevent metal to metal contact.

Speaking of oil pres. I need some opinions from you guys. Just installed a sport cluster into my Mighty Max tonight. The new cluster adds a tach, and replaces the battery light with a volt meter, and replaces the oil pres. light with a guage. I installed the cluster, and installed the oil pres. sensor-- To replace the oil pres. switch). What I noticed while watching my oil pres at different RPMS scared me.

If I gradually bring the rpms to 4k while sitting in neutral (don't like reving to Red light while not under load), the oil pres. guage builds to about the max safe range on the guage (no readings on the factory guage). Problem comes when I rev the engine quickly up to 3250-4k rpms. It actually builds up then at about 3250 it actually starts to drop back down to the minimum safe range.

WTF is happening? Do you guys think that the oil is airerating (coonass spelling for you)?? Is the pres. relieve valve opening due to the quick surge of oil volume and not recovering as it drops??

Granted, I plan on rebuilding this 211k mile beast in the summer, but I've never seen this before.

BTW: Before you guys say it, I WILLL be hooking up a mechanical guage and watching the pres. when I get a chance to see what kind of pres. it's actually putting out and to see if maybe there is a problem with my new sending unit.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:38 am

smog wrote:lol, oh boy...

The head is then removed, the unit is cooled, a specially designed Flow-Thru Torque Plate is installed, and the block is again heated to 220°F and measured. When the Flow-Thru Torque Plate has been validated, it's used for subsequent honing at temperature.

NOW that IS the true way to machine the engine @ 220F not 170 F . it is a very correct statement. the importance of the toque plate is the cylinder head bolt distorts the cylinder wall when torqued. In other words, when the cylinder bolt is torqued in its hole, it moves the metal next to it INTO the cylinder wall. Torquing the head plate on the cylinder surface allows the bolt hole to swell and then the machine process turns that metal out of the bore and produces a smooth round finish

But because the piston will have a such a huge difference in temperature beween the crown and the skirt, you would NOT taper the bore to be smaller at the top then the bottom of travel

1/3rd of the power generated from the IC engine is used to turn the wheels, 1/3 is used to manage the heat, and 1/3 is sent out the tail pipe as heat, when you use a turbo, you use the heat from the tailpipe to produce power and make the engine more efficiant. but you cant make horsepower without heat, if you only heat to 170 F, your not making the horsepower the engine is capable of, if you manage the cooling system well and still make 220 F you are maximizing the engines power

Dont get me started.......................I am by myself Justine..........thinking of a carrot

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:49 am

Robert Venable wrote:
Speaking of oil pres. I need some opinions from you guys. Just installed a sport cluster into my Mighty Max tonight. The new cluster adds a tach, and replaces the battery light with a volt meter, and replaces the oil pres. light with a guage. I installed the cluster, and installed the oil pres. sensor-- To replace the oil pres. switch). What I noticed while watching my oil pres at different RPMS scared me.

If I gradually bring the rpms to 4k while sitting in neutral (don't like reving to Red light while not under load), the oil pres. guage builds to about the max safe range on the guage (no readings on the factory guage). Problem comes when I rev the engine quickly up to 3250-4k rpms. It actually builds up then at about 3250 it actually starts to drop back down to the minimum safe range.

WTF is happening? Do you guys think that the oil is airerating (coonass spelling for you)?? Is the pres. relieve valve opening due to the quick surge of oil volume and not recovering as it drops??

Your pick up tube screen is partialy clogged and the volume of oil cannot keep up with demand. I have also seen cracks in the pick up tube that suck air when pressed.
If you take the time to run the oil pump without the engine running and watch the oil level in your oil pan, you would be amazed, it scared me to death the first time I witnessed how it works, the amount of oil in the oil pan drops to about 1 1/2 quart, the rest is up in the engine

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Justine wrote:blah. i dont care anymore

I am a broken carrot man

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:17 pm

Bill Hincher wrote: WTF is happening? Do you guys think that the oil is airerating (coonass spelling for you)?? Is the pres. relieve valve opening due to the quick surge of oil volume and not recovering as it drops??

Your pick up tube screen is partialy clogged and the volume of oil cannot keep up with demand. I have also seen cracks in the pick up tube that suck air when pressed.
If you take the time to run the oil pump without the engine running and watch the oil level in your oil pan, you would be amazed, it scared me to death the first time I witnessed how it works, the amount of oil in the oil pan drops to about 1 1/2 quart, the rest is up in the engine[/quote]

That kinda make since, except for how clean the inside of this engine is.

When I removed the valve cover at about 205K the engine was cleaner than just about every single engine I've taken apart in the past. My grandfather changed the oil religiously at 3k, and used Diesel oil (High Detergerant). Also, every oil change since I've gotten it. I've flushed it with a 50/50 mix of ATF and Engine oil (drain the oil and filter, reinstall filter, add 2 qts 5/30 or 15/60, and top off with ATF. Run engine for 30+ min., mostly idling with the occasional rev to 4k).

Either way, I guess I will see if you are right this summer.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:27 pm

Some of the items here peaked my interest and have some input on them.

The DSM motor runs at 11psi at operating temperature at 750RPM. On a cold start, it's not uncommon to see nearly 100psi measured at the oil filter housing before the oil filter. There is a mod to help that relief spring and I'll post it when I find the link. I know for a fact that John Shepherd runs 85psi and this is done at almost 10k RPMs. I don't know his secret, but somehow it works.

Removing the balance shafts and blocking off the oil holes improves oil pressure. I saw a 4psi climb at idle on my 92 TSi when I did this. Removing the oil squirters does the same, though I don't know to what extent. Most DSM racers are drag guys and running the engine hard for 10 seconds you won't miss those squirters. It is true that aftermarket pistons have different heating properties. (or whatever) Alot of forged aluminum pistons will cool much better than stock and may not require squirters. I for one will keep mine for safety's sake.

The distortion under heat is very real. Alot of guys running early JE pistons complained of "piston slap" on cold starts. This is because the pistons themselves where not up to operating temperature. Also, the distortion from head toque is also very real especially in DSMs. It is suggested that you torque the head to spec before you torque the main caps due to it's distortion. How weird is that?

And as far as blow off valves go, it's still debatable. It does proven to help eliminate a reverse surge on your compressor. In limited driving and race applications, it may not be neccessary. For guys running stock DSM MAF setups (even 2G conversions) the recirculation of the BOV is known to cause problems when eliminated. Mostly it causes rich conditions under closed throttle shifts and poor idle. This isn't really related to the other issues, but shows what issues can happen no matter how small.

That's about all the info I have. I don't really see why the motor would have run lean other than Bill's thought on high RPM vacuum off throttle. It makes sense, but I don't know that it would cause this. I would imagine a fuel cut under those conditions and therefore no combustion would take place without the fuel. But I'm not as smart as some of you, so I'll stop there.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:30 pm

I'll catch up on all the recent posts in a bit. I wanted to post my injector test rig:

Justine is holding my other bottles hostage.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:13 pm

I don't know Jeff, but the gaskets look actually sucked in not blown out. If the balance of boost is left out of the plenum, as Old Colt says, on deacceleration ,why would the damage be behind the plate? Is the Turbo capable of generating that much suction when spooled up, that it could pull a vacuum in the plenum so hard it sucked in the gasket?

GREAT JOB on the injector set up, we used to use glass baby bottles because they had graduated markings on the bottle and it was easy to see the balance of flow that way

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:22 pm

this would also explain lean condition burning out the pistons

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