Holy shite, I have a car and motors! What next?

'84-GroupB · Post by **'84-GroupB** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:51 am

So I've sourced an 1984 Starion ES for a chasis and two complete engines, one 4G64 out of a D50 and a 4G63T out of a GST. All I know about the motors is that the G63 snapped a timing belt, so I know that motor will need new valves at the least and the G64 is sitting in an old D50/RAM that originally had a G54. I'm trying to remember what the measurement was for the wideblock G64, but failing miserably and the search function on the forums is ker-fuckerd. I'm going to double check the G64 with a spare G54 motor/tranny backplate.

I already have the car and am going to pick up the G64 this weekend and the G63 sometime week after next. Ideally I'd like to use Evo8 electronics to run the thing and was hoping someone else has already tried going this route? What are y'all using for pistons as I doubt the stock cast G64 pistons will hold up under high boost?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:48 am

hello kane

Excuse my ignorance but is the Evo8 the wide block? and when you trade the 4G63 turbo parts into the 4g64 wide block, what does it cost when you include decent pistons?

Thanks
Bill

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:07 pm

This is where it gets kinda complicated with the 4G64/63 stuff.

First, the 4G64 is a 2.4L that has a slightly larger bore at 86.5 mm vs 85 and a longer stroke at 100mm vs 88mm in the 4G63 2.0L. The rod length is the same, but the pistons are completely different. They did make a DOHC version of the 2.4L in the 94 Galant, which is why this swap is very easy. The only thing you need to be careful of is trying to swap parts between a 7-bolt and 6-bolt motor. (designated as such by the flywheel bolts)

I'm not sure what the EVO 8/9 has as far as a block, cause most of those parts will not work with this example as the engine faces the opposite way in those cars. Although it's designated a 4G63, it is very different.

You can mix and match parts to get different results. You can put the 2.4L crank in a 2.0L and make a 2.3L engine. You can put the 2.0L crank in the 2.4L block and have a 2.1L. The 2.1L is a destroked engine with long rods making for a higher reving engine due to lower piston speed. In all of these applications, you need aftermarket pistons. Typical prices for a piston/rod combo are about $700-$750. You can do an easy search for DSM shops. Some of the bigger ones are Slowboy Racing, Buschur Racing, Road Race Engineering etc. I've spent alot of time on DSMTuners.com and they have a great parts section with lots of sponsor links and such. PM me if you need some more questions answered.

'84-GroupB · Post by **'84-GroupB** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:05 am

My bad, I don't know how I overlooked this section of the forum.

I figgure with the Evo 8 bits, the obdII conversion and Evo 8 sensors/relays follow. It would be a bit more than throwing a harness on the motor and then throw the motor in teh car and drive off. I know I'm in for a load of work trying to use the Evo 8 electronics, but I feel the payoff in the end would be worth it.

I'm aware that the late model Evo 4G63 is different from the older DSM 4G63. The only thing I planned on using from that motor were the intake, throttle body. I don't think it will bolt up directly, but that's what adapter plates are for. Maybe find some cams ground to match the Evo cams but with the proper rotation.

Regardless of what crank is in the GST motor, I plan on running a 6 bolt, I don't want to have to deal with crankwalk. Will the stock starion flywheel bolt up to the 6 bolt crank? I thought I saw somewhere on this forum that it does...

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:37 am

Ever hear of K.I.S.S. ?

Keep It Simple, Stupid!

'84-GroupB · Post by **'84-GroupB** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:41 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:Ever hear of K.I.S.S. ?

Keep It Simple, Stupid!

Oh hell no, that'd be way too easy!

Fabritory · Post by **Fabritory** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:40 pm

EVO8 engine spins reverse rotation

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:35 pm

Good catch about the EVO8. I forgot about that. It might be a cool idea, but sourcing parts will be a pain. I assume that's why most of us chose other engines and such.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:38 am

where do you get that the evo engine spins backwards? That's crazy talk. Just becuase the head flows the other direction doesnt mean the motor spins backwards.

'84-GroupB · Post by **'84-GroupB** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:51 am

It spins clockwise, our quests and the DSMs spin counter-clockwise. Easy way to tell which way a motor spins in a transverse setup is which side of the car the motor is on. If the motor is on the driver's side the motor usually spins counter-clockwise. If the motor is on the passenger's side, it usually spins clockwise. Mainshaft on the transmission rotates with the motor, countershaft rotates counter (duh) and then the differential rotates with the motor and mainshaft.

But that's all null and void as far as electronics are concerened. So long as the sensors give the ECU the proper signals, neither care which direction the motor spins.

skizzo · Post by **skizzo** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:49 pm

The EVO 4g63 does spin the opposite direction of the DSM 4g63. It wouldn't be very hard to use the EVO8 electronics on a DSM 4g63 though, because the main difference you're going to run into is crank angle. So, use a DSM crank angle sensor (which is probably the most compatible with the DSM 4g63 anyway) and wire it up to your EVO8 elecrtronics. Not a big deal.

Fabritory · Post by **Fabritory** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:54 am

i was lookin up cam degree write-ups and found this seemed pretty intrusting

http://dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread. ... egree+cams

just thought id share

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:56 pm

'84-GroupB wrote:It spins clockwise, our quests and the DSMs spin counter-clockwise. Easy way to tell which way a motor spins in a transverse setup is which side of the car the motor is on. If the motor is on the driver's side the motor usually spins counter-clockwise. If the motor is on the passenger's side, it usually spins clockwise. Mainshaft on the transmission rotates with the motor, countershaft rotates counter (duh) and then the differential rotates with the motor and mainshaft.

That's just wrong though. The side of the engine bay does not determine which directing the engine spins.

Here is a quote I found after some searching...

Wait.. so whats this orientation thing? *WHY* were things switched? Well.. its more about the transmission than the motor actually. See, nearly every FWD car out there has their motor located on the right-side (like ours) - but during the 90s Honda and Mitsu had their's on the LEFT. Now, this causes a few issues - follow me here: if a motor spins clockwise it'll then spin the input shaft of the tranny clockwise, which then makes the output shaft spin counter-clockwise, which then makes the differential spin clockwise (spinning the wheels clockwise as well). Got it? read that again and connect the dots if you're confused.

Ok, so whats that mean? Well.. when the motor is on the right side (like ours), that gives you the regular 5-speeds forward and 1-reverse gear. Cool. But when the motor is on the LEFT side (like the 1G/2Gs & early-EVOs), this gives you 5-speeds reverse and 1-speed forward.... not very pratical.

So Honda solved this "slight" problem by spinning the motor counter-clockwise from the start. DONE, problem solved. But Mitsubishi instead added an extra shaft to flip the rotation one more time to keep things going the right way. Ahh... extra shaft... more friction, power robbing efficiency, takes up space - great idea.

So this all changed when Mitsu wanted to upgrade the EVO 4's tranny with big ol' gears there just wasnt enough room. So Mitsu moved the engine to the right-side, and decided to do the same for future cars like ours. Ta-da!

Plus I asked someone with an evo and he said it turns clockwise, just like my 4G64 in the racecar. Granted I still have yet to take note of this in person, I think this is enough info to prove my point that an Evo 4G63 spins the same direction as a DSM 4G63.

skizzo · Post by **skizzo** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:25 pm

DJpowerHaus: Yep, you're right. I had an aneurysm or something. The EVO 4g63 spins the same direction as the DSM 4g63.

I know what it was - a few years back I built a 4G64, but it spun backwards because it was a setup on some guy's boat. Crazy engine. We dry sumped it, and ran it on methanol

'84-GroupB · Post by **'84-GroupB** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:34 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote: That's just wrong though. The side of the engine bay does not determine which directing the engine spins.

Uhm, no its not just wrong. Note the use of the word "usually."

'84-GroupB wrote:If the motor is on the driver's side the motor usually spins counter-clockwise. If the motor is on the passenger's side, it usually spins clockwise.

Unless the manufacturer does something funky with their transmission, the engine's rotation will be decided by where it sits in the engine bay.

Wait.. so whats this orientation thing? *WHY* were things switched? Well.. its more about the transmission than the motor actually. See, nearly every FWD car out there has their motor located on the right-side (like ours) - but during the 90s Honda and Mitsu had their's on the LEFT. Now, this causes a few issues - follow me here: if a motor spins clockwise it'll then spin the input shaft of the tranny clockwise, which then makes the output shaft spin counter-clockwise, which then makes the differential spin clockwise (spinning the wheels clockwise as well). Got it? read that again and connect the dots if you're confused.

'84-GroupB wrote: Mainshaft on the transmission rotates with the motor, countershaft rotates counter (duh) and then the differential rotates with the motor and mainshaft.

Moving on.

Ok, so whats that mean? Well.. when the motor is on the right side (like ours), that gives you the regular 5-speeds forward and 1-reverse gear. Cool. But when the motor is on the LEFT side (like the 1G/2Gs & early-EVOs), this gives you 5-speeds reverse and 1-speed forward.... not very pratical.

So Honda solved this "slight" problem by spinning the motor counter-clockwise from the start. DONE, problem solved. But Mitsubishi instead added an extra shaft to flip the rotation one more time to keep things going the right way. Ahh... extra shaft... more friction, power robbing efficiency, takes up space - great idea.

So this all changed when Mitsu wanted to upgrade the EVO 4's tranny with big ol' gears there just wasnt enough room. So Mitsu moved the engine to the right-side, and decided to do the same for future cars like ours. Ta-da!

DJpowerHaus wrote: Plus I asked someone with an evo and he said it turns clockwise, just like my 4G64 in the racecar. Granted I still have yet to take note of this in person, I think this is enough info to prove my point that an Evo 4G63 spins the same direction as a DSM 4G63.

Oooookay. I just checked my ALLDATA to see how the transmissions are laid out and I was under the wrong impression. Everything spins the same direction motor wise, its just that the flow throught the head has been reversed. That should mean that the cams can be used as well provided that the bearings are the same size and all the electronics will work with little modification.

Fabritory · Post by **Fabritory** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:56 pm

'84-GroupB wrote: That should mean that the cams can be used as well provided that the bearings are the same size

EeVO/DSM cams are cut from the same blanks

'84-GroupB · Post by **'84-GroupB** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:06 am

That thread you posted earlier said that the EVO cams were hollow and the DSM cams were solid, how could they be of the same blank?

Fabritory · Post by **Fabritory** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:51 am

I was speaking in terms of aftermarket

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:07 pm

Also, the Evo CAS is on the exhaust cam, not the intake cam. You'll spend more money trying to use EVO parts than you would just buying a set of Comp cams. Trust me on that.