1g cas rotating backwards?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:47 pm

Does anyone know if a 1g cas will still funtion correctly if rotated backwards or is it direction dependant?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:11 pm

according to 'Old Colt' he tried that and couldnt make it work

http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic ... ight=#4785

I checked the disc, thinking I could just turn it upside down, and I thought about re wiring it either at the ignition coil or at the output from the CAS to trick the ECU but I havent worked on it very hard yet

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:22 pm

After looking at the disk, I had seem that it wouldn't be that easy. Is the disk removable?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:30 pm

yeah, you can disassemble the whole thing, but the way the slots are worked out, you have 4 equally spaced firing order slots and the TDC slot, but then you have the number one cyl TDC and that cant be realigned

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:37 pm

What about some aluminum tape over the one hole and punch another hole somewhere else?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:48 pm

yeah, we may be able to do that but what is the advantage?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:52 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:yeah, we may be able to do that but what is the advantage?

Running it on the front instead of the rear.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:57 pm

I thought about that but the alignment would be sooooooooooo critical. I was thinking about casting a timing belt cover thick enough you could mount the CAS inverted at the front , but it was just too much work, everybody here said the 2nd gen system was the way to go
is a front mounted CAS something you would want?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:55 pm

Bill, how about a small gearbox to drive the cas the correct way on the front of the engine while facing the front? I was also thinking of a belt drive for the cas.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 8:37 pm

belt drive is the intellegent way to go, it would eliminate most of the alignment requirements, using a couple bearings and a bearing shaft out of mcMaster carr would be the way to go, pick up a couple timing pulleys and a small timing belt would work fine, but again, for the time involved, what about the second gen set up that runs off the oil pump gear?
we all talked it over before
http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=527

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:58 pm

The 2g cas would be nice, but then you would have to get the tdc signals to the ecu. A combo belt/gearbox would make a nice clean install right on the front of the engine. I like being able to adjust the timing as well.

Bill, how hard would it be to machine a small housing to hold two small oil pump gears and bolt the cas to it?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:07 pm

I thought for about 10 seconds about mounting the cas directly to the cam gear with the key facing forward and held by the timing cover.. and then I thought about wires and threw that idea out the window. Oh well. Not like my brain has much useful stuff going on these days anyways.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:16 am

I got the whole thing worked out, but I thought it was a dead issue.
I had thought the second gen set up was an easy fix, but now that I look at it, its a pain in the ass, plus its unadjustable, we can do a lot better than that
I will make some measurements and order a couple bearings and show you how I would do it

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:32 am

How about brackets to use the 2G sensors on 6 bolt oil pump housings and heads?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Dec 22, 2007 10:33 pm

I been working on what to do with the CAS and I thought I would give this idea a try. I made this mounting plate that fits nicely behind the T-belt adjust plate

Its attached with three bolts on a machined flat surface to make sure I can get good alignment

I can probably use this same bracket to include an alternator mount , if it comes up in the future, you can see in this pic how I intend to drive the CAS with the timing pulley mounted to the camshaft

I put in the mounting hole away from the block far enough to clear the intake manifold

I wanted the CAS mounted on the intake side because I wanted to stay away from exhaust manifold heat and I wanted it high enough to allow a p/s pump or an alternator mounted below it

I built a bearing/shaft holder for my drive assembly, using an cam shape body to allow for belt adustment

now you can see the drive pulley on the camshaft and its relationship to the bearing holder

I used this engine to show how the CAs will clear the stock intake manifold set up

at this point I have plenty of room for adjustment about how far forward or back I might adjust the length of the bearing holder

now the CAS fits neatly under the intake away from the heat and easy to adjust to whatever you want to tune into it

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:13 am

That setup looks great Bill

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:11 am

you dont think its overkill, do you?

would you preffer the CAS mounted ahead of the intake manifold or underneath it?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:47 pm

I think underneath is fine, as long as it will be accesible enough to adjust timing and allow the use of smim.

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:26 pm

it looks good but might not clear with a sheet metal intake mani they sit lower.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:33 pm

we got room to allow it to be closer to the front or lower it to compinsate for any intake manifold

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:12 am

Bill, I just got Peregrine's JMF intake manny in, so I can test fit it to another 4g63 I have to see how it will clear it.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:04 am

I think its overkill, but hey, its a good solution.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:00 am

DJ! I been listening to you whine and bitch about that CAS location ever since I met you ! and you think its overkill?

this is just 'first draft' stuff, if you will kindly add your valued input, we can make a clean simple build here

what if we could use the oil pump pulley as the drive and add an alternator mount?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:20 am

How about we get rid of the oil pump gear all together and run a separate belt from the crank to drive a CAS, Oil Pump, Alternator combo!

Its 9AM and I'm not much for designing things at this time.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:32 pm

when I build the dry sump system, I will lower this bracket and incorperate the lower bracket into the mount for the oil pump, then it will drive off the front crankshaft mandrel I build, I had planned to include this with the dry sump system

I have to make a couple spacers to finish this out and trim down the size of everything to make it look 'works expermental'

yep, the timing belt fits fit, no changes at all

I can mount the CAs flush with the rear bracket, do you think that would be better?

I even put the original sheet meatl cover back into place

I don't know, do you think its good to keep the alternator seperate of the CAS? the alternator is gonna make lots of amperage floating around, I wonder if it might interfere with the signals of the CAS

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:48 am

What about bolting the CAS to the back of a Drysump Oil pump??? This way, if the pump is not turning-- you will not have an ignition signal.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:01 am

the dry sump has to remain adjustable at around 53 to 56 %

I got it figured out using the balancer shaft pulleys to save a buck, its slick

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:57 am

I had to build the flange to hold and adjust the CAS, I remind you , these are rough draft parts so everything is subject to change

I built the flange so that after you adjust the belt, you can also adjust the flange, ensuring good alignment

I like the idea of keeping the cylinder short, I would preffer keeping the CAS where I can easily adjust it, but keeping it this short may require a custom drive shaft and I am agaisnt that, because the CAS has probably got two or three venders involved from the factory and some dimensions may be different in shaft size, so I would like to keep it as a ' plug in' option with no disassembly of CAS required

I had to create a center locater for the new mandral to align itself seperate fom the alignment guide pin, so I enlarged the center of the Camshaft gear allowing my new mandral to seat and center its location

Before I built this mandral for the camshaft, I thought long and hard ( kinda like 3rd grade) about using the silent shaft gears on the crankshaft, it would have been easy , they are designed exactly at 2 to 1 ratio just like the crank to camshaft and the distance center to center wa the same but it made the whole unit move forward in the car about 4 inches to clear the p/s alt belt arraingements so you would loose the advantage of the shorter engine, I will however be making a unit specificaly for the dry sump unit, because the crankshaft mandral will be required for the dry sump unit, there is no reason to use the camshaft as a driver for the CAS so that will be a package deal

This is rough draft, its made out of steel and looks like ' jubba the hut'

but I am trying ideas in alignment with it , I would like to build it out of aluminuim but I have to make sure it wont fail because if this little puppy screws up, you bend all your valves and come looking for me

my original intention was to use the small gears from the balancer shaft , it would have been easier to do and may have looked nicer but the larger gear from the balancer shaft is more desirable because of the RPM range this may encounter, the larger the gear , the less radius the belt has to ' bend' and that takes less HP to turn and it is less likely to flip off

any constructive input is welcome and helpful, so feel free to speak up on what you may like to see different

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:22 pm

more work

saturnshadow · Post by **saturnshadow** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:19 pm

i am confused. The CAS spins the same speed at the cam right? well if you are driving it off the front of the cam wouldn't it already be 50% of the crank speed, therefor a 1:1 from the cam pulley to the CAS would be needed.

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:39 pm

Bill is aware of the the need for 1:1 ratio, I think heis expirementing with different types of sprockets.

saturnshadow · Post by **saturnshadow** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:24 pm

Ahh, yeah i just saw the 2 different sizes and was wondering.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:17 pm

yeah,
at first I was gonna use all the parts from the balancer shaft to build the unit, so all the parts would be universal, I was gonna use the small gears and the timing belt, but after placing the CAS in a place that would work with the stock intake, the timing belt was too short, so I figured I would use the larger gear from the balancer shaft set up so the radius of the bend in the timing belt would be longer, but it was such a pain in the ass to make the adaptors for the gears AND the gears are an odd number tooth set, not available from vendors, that I bit the bullet and bought the right pulleys instead of spending hours making the stock gears fit

development work, aint over until its over

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:11 pm

sorry about the delay on this but I ordered some parts and I havent received them yet, so I aint just sittin around

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:24 pm

well ,I fianaly got the part I been waiting for to finish the CAS set up

This is called a gear core, you buy them straight from the manufacturer, now I will cut the gear to size, add the shoulder washers and mount them on the cam gears, I can probably make ten gears out of this one rod

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:55 am

Found this on SQC

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2265684

DSM CAS spinning backwards and apparently running with a Megasquirt ECU. Not sure how, but trying to find out.

Edit: more info: http://www.starquestclub.com/forums/vie ... hp?t=66472

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:50 pm

That guy reported misfires with that set-up and it's because it's not spinning the right way.

If people just put it on the back of the head like I did then they wouldn't have a problem.

Technology over on SQC uses an AEM EMS for a 1g with my set-up, and a few other reported users that don't post much.

I'm just going to modify a FWD cam because of the longer shaft and cut the provisions out for the cas to slide in the back.

but anyway, Bill, all your work looks amazing!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:25 pm

I been kinda rethinking the placing of the CAS, above the intake ,next to the cam gear, instead of so far away from the gera, I wanna shorten the belt

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:41 pm

Bill i gotta better look at the dry sump'd 4G we have in the shop and it's actually mounted just like you have your CAS mounted... in that same area.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:13 pm

emagdnim wrote:Bill i gotta better look at the dry sump'd 4G we have in the shop and it's actually mounted just like you have your CAS mounted... in that same area.

Pictures please!

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:52 pm

I will post pictures if the owner of the car allow's me too.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Feb 14, 2008 1:21 am

if your talking about the oil pump, he mounted it pretty high

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:57 am

yeah, i would love to do that, but, that would be ' one of a kind' stuff, you would have to find a way to locate the CAS over the cam at exact dead center, and you would have to do it repeatadly, there are no reasonable guide pins to work with that would allow me to send it to a guy and make a direct bolt up, the belt allows me room for error, it only needs to be straight and square to the drive pulley, the belt will absorb imperfect alignment

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:34 pm

oldcolt75 wrote:there is only one tool you will need for this job

That's what your mom said.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 12:15 pm

I was asked about reposting some pic's

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:58 pm

Does anyone have an 'exploded' view of the 1-g C.A.S.?

I'm thinking of when I ever do this Hornet swap (if I don't have the room) is to mount a flexible cable from the back of the head to just behind the dash, on the firewall metal, and mount the CAS there.
And if the wires just go back to the ECU, that would shorten them also.

It shouldn't take too much force to turn it so there shouldn't be wear problems through the cable. I've got plenty of old speedometer cable to experiment with.

E

knuckshaft · Post by **knuckshaft** » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:44 pm

Has anyone tried bills set up yet?

knuckshaft · Post by **knuckshaft** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 12:36 pm

Any more updates? A lot of the pics don't work, but the Ones that do make me want to try this. Did you ever finish this bill? Do you need someone to test it?