c4 adapted to the GM plate for the 64G

[Bill Hincher]

Its for my 4g64 which is the same as evo 8. If you remember im putting a C4 on the back possibly using the bell housing from ultra bell to convert from gm to ford.You were going to mail me with something but i guess you been busy.

Tony

what do you guys think about this?

[tonyg64]

Its for my 4g64 which is the same as evo 8. If you remember im putting a C4 on the back possibly using the bell housing from ultra bell to convert from gm to ford.You were going to mail me with something but i guess you been busy.

Tony

what do you guys think about this?

I think its a great idea


Tony

[Bill Hincher]

the EVO 8 is a different bolt pattern then the 4G64 in either the wide block or the narrow block

[tonyg64]

Ill confirm later when back home. Ive got block plates for both and an E8 block next to my 64 block.

Tony

[jezz_s13]

Hi Bill,

How the devil are you? Well I hope.

Tony has asked me to host a picture of the two crap guards from the 64 and e8 blocks to show the bolt hole alignment.

E8 on top of the 64 (64 narrow block I presume?)



Cheers,
Jezz.

[tonyg64]

Thanks for that Jez

Bill, If we could get an adapter plate made that takes the C4 (SBF PATTERN), It would give the choice of which bell housing people want to use ie stock or SFI approved.

The starter position would obviously need to be added to the plate to suit the C4 position.
This only leaves the flex plate to be made, again either an SFI approved custom plate or a home brew for the street guys.

In my case I will need an SFI bell and flexplate to comply with race rules on cars quicker than 9.90.

Hope we can sort something out here

Tony

[Bill Hincher]

Hi Bill,

How the devil are you? Well I hope.

Tony has asked me to host a picture of the two crap guards from the 64 and e8 blocks to show the bolt hole alignment.

E8 on top of the 64 (64 narrow block I presume?)



Cheers,
Jezz.

heyJezz I miss your company >;o)

last time we talked ( 2 years ago now) I was working on your shifter
did you finish the car? did you race it?

[jezz_s13]

heyJezz I miss your company >;o)

last time we talked ( 2 years ago now) I was working on your shifter
did you finish the car? did you race it?

Not many do, I'm flattered.

Surely wasn't that long ago?
Not finished no, though there is an event in July that I hope the car will be at.

My good friend Tony here has pretty much finished my engine build.

[Bill Hincher]

heyJezz I miss your company >;o)

last time we talked ( 2 years ago now) I was working on your shifter
did you finish the car? did you race it?

Not many do, I'm flattered.

well it aint like we were 'dating'

I just wanted to see how things worked out

[jezz_s13]

LOL, no that's true.

Things have worked out well, just progressing slowly but have never come to a complete halt. Just had a few other things to do.

What do you make of the E8 Vs 64 block bolt patterns, are they consistent with the 64 block over the pond?

[Bill Hincher]

I would be very intrested in the clutch arraingement in your 4G64 narrow block because yes, its a direct bolt up to the EVO 4 through 9.
the wide block used here allows a larger flywheel for truck/van applications and heavier clutches

the EVO bolt pattern allowed a much larger flywheel to handle the increase horsepower, the flywheel is 10mm diameter larger then the FWD 4G63

BUT the EVO here comes with a pull style clutch

I would be very intrested to see if your engine came with a larger flywheel with a push style clutch

[tonyg64]

The 4g64 block of mine here had a push type clutch.
It came with a 16valve twin cam head with direct injection into the chamber.
Idont have any of the bits left unfortunately

So Bill can you do me a plate??


Tony

[Bill Hincher]

yeah, I can build it,
I am kinda on call right now, my wife has started Chemo for her cancer, there is no cure, we hope to get the cancer in remission and she is pretty scared
so I dont know the reacition to her treatments yet, so I am guarded about how much time I have, every day I spend with her is my last day

now is that a 6 bolt crank? or a 7 ? and from what I understand, you need a Chevy flex plate? or your own flex plate?

[tonyg64]

Sorry about your wife Bill I hope it can be eased as much as possible for her.


7 bolt crank
If your GM plate could be drilled for SBF pattern instead of GM and the starter position could be made to work with Ford dimensions that would suit me best.
Ive got to get a custom flexplate made either way so if the ford box can go straight to the plate ill get a ford pattern flex plate with 7 bolt crank pattern made. I can then sort a crank spacer once i do the mock up at this end.
Im aiming to use the 164 tooth flex plate and starter but if space is an issue 157 tooth will do also.

Let me know what you think Bill


Regards

Tony

[Bill Hincher]

nope cant be done, I have tried and tried to re drill to the 7 bolt arriangment and it wont work, I bought the pullmax so I can build my own flexplates for the very reason

[tonyg64]

No Bill flex plate is not a problem. Ill sort a flex plate myself, what i need from you should you wish to do is an adapter plate from engine to C4 with correct starter location and as said 164 tooth is my preference but 157 is fine too. Ill need to get an SFI plate made custom anyway.
The flex plate will come with the 7 bolt pattern and ill simply make a spacer to match the adapter plate thickness (approx)

Tony

[jezz_s13]

yeah, I can build it,
I am kinda on call right now, my wife has started Chemo for her cancer, there is no cure, we hope to get the cancer in remission and she is pretty scared

Really sorry to see this Bill, best wishes to you both.

[Bill Hincher]

yeah, I can build it,
I am kinda on call right now, my wife has started Chemo for her cancer, there is no cure, we hope to get the cancer in remission and she is pretty scared

Really sorry to see this Bill, best wishes to you both.

thanks Jezz, thats how I nknew it had been 2 years, I had just finished the R 154 EVO for you when we found out 'something' was wrong

It dont matter what flywheel you get, the 153 or the 167, they all have the same center, so all you can use is the ring gear

[tonyg64]

It dont matter what flywheel you get, the 153 or the 167, they all have the same center, so all you can use is the ring gear[/quote]

Would the starter positions be different in the plate with differing flex plate diameters? Or is it possible to leave the starter to sit in the bell and have clearance around the adapter plate for the starter to pass? That makes sense to me (I think lol)


Tony

[Bill Hincher]

It depends on how its done, because if you use an adapter at the crank it will move the flexplate rearward and the flexplate will be behind the mounting bolts, so then you can mount the starter accordingly, if you use a bellhousing, then you need a flex plate that is narrower then the lower bellhousing bolts

in either way, the starter will need to be indexed within .030 thousands of the flexplate

and what I have tried to explain is, the 7 bolt crank pattern will NOT compliment the Chevy flex plate in the center section, so a flex plate needs to be built to aviod a large coupler at the crankshaft

[tonyg64]

Im not going to use a chevy flexplate now. there was that in mind but what ive decided to do is get a custom flexplate made with 4g holes drilled in but NOT any other holes ie ford or chevy. the rest of the flexplate will be as a C4 / sbf detail, so in theory it will bolt directly to the crank with no adapters. Then with and adpter plate of 12mm thick (just an example) the flexplate will need to move outwards also by 12mm which wont need a fancy hole adaption piece just a spacer with through holes.

This way if the starter bolts into the C4 bell (as it does) i can make clearance in the adapter plate for it to pass.

Any way ill show you what i mean when i get some material in stock. Ive ordered some to have a go at making one myself


Tony

[Bill Hincher]

flexplates need to move, the converter pushes against the flexplate as the pump builds pressure, they act like a spring really, thats why a lot of times you see a concave depression worked into the flexplate
that movement is also present in the centering locating nose of the converter, the converter must move .060 thousands forward under load, so you must pay attention to detail in the center adapter to allow forward movement, having said that, when you bolt the engine to the transmission, the converter should have about 1/8th inch free travel before bolting it to the flexplate
the center adapter puts the converter centered with the crankshaft and then the outer converter bolts hold it in place
so when you design you starter location , you need to have about an .080 thousands gap
The starter gear will follow the structure of the converter when bolted together, so when you set your run out on the starter gear , make sure you have them bolte together

[tonyg64]

Yeah thats all understood Bill.
Here are some pics of a wooden mock up so far this morning:


http://www.flickr.com/photos/tg1mm/6694954499/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tg1mm/6694954993/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tg1mm/6694955181/
[/img]

[jezz_s13]

Here you go Tony, fixed that for you.

[Bill Hincher]

just a note, that is the truck bolt pattern for the C4 ( I know thats not a problem with the universal bellhousing) but, the car bellhousing is perfectly round ( also reffered to as the case filled trans) and that would be the preffered trans from the passenger car

[tonyg64]

Indeed it is Bill. I chose to use the bigger bell/pan fill trans on there so if i need to swap between the 2 I know they will both fit. On my custom flex plate I will order it with both small and large bolt patterns so if I need to use a case fill with smaller bell I can do so. I realise I will have check the converter spacing for the smaller set up.

Jez, thanks for hosting again

Tony