Bill's next project?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:50 pm

Bill is the man. Let's get that out of way now. He's done so much for us here, that it can't be put any simpler than that. But most of us will need another solution to this issue some time in the future. You know, when he's done with his other 8 gazzillion projects.

As you can see, the oil pan for the 4G63 hags pretty low. I have 4 inches of clearance on my car as it sits now, but will likely be less with more parts and passengers. Also, being a front sump pan, there are some inherent issues. So here is my proposal, we (meaning Bill) develop a cast aluminum pan that remains front sump, but has a nice sump and some other fancy stuff with better ground clearance. I think you could probably steal the basic idea from the GReddy SR20DET pan, but have it bolt up to our motor.

Obviously it needs an upper section to bolt up to the 4G63 block. This unit bolts up to the upper pan section of a stock SR20. It solves many of the issues with a front sump system by having trap doors and extra capacity for racing applications. Another addition we would need to incorporate would be a new pickup tube that is shorter for the increase in ground clearance and reduction in pan depth.
So Bill, what do you think? Wait, stop reading this and get back to work! Please

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:05 pm

i have been in contact with bill about building an oil pan for our sirius motors, i like this idea coping the sr20 design might save some frustrations with relocating the pickup tube and dipstick. im in the same boat as you with oil pan issues. maybe bill can chime in, he might be able to build us an adapter to bolt this greddy pan to our motors, if possible.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 7:15 am

lets do it

do you want it casted?

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:52 am

I'm fine with cast or welded, Is one cheaper?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:23 pm

I would think that cast would end up being cheaper and stronger. Welding would require lots of time behind the TIG. Cast would require some machine work, but I figured this would be simple compared to the Billhousings. I don't image there's as much design work behind this either. My advice would be to not make this fit with the GReddy pan. Those things are expensive. I'm not sure what price point you would be shooting at Bill, but we're all cheap bastards and only spend money in essential areas.
Cheap copies like this can be had for $85.
http://speed-daddy.com/index.php/oil-pa ... 4-s15.html
I would assume they're pretty much crap. I think Bill could shoot for under $200 and it would be a steal. If it's compatible with FWD/AWD DSM setups, you could sell more than you could make.
OBX makes a cheap copy of the Moroso oil pan ($500) for about $200.

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:01 am

you might even be able to use the stock oil pickup with this greddy or greddy knock off pan, just make your adjustments in the adapter to put the pickup tube in the middle of this setup.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:54 pm

I would think the stock pickup tube would be too long. It goes into the stock pan, which is pretty deep. This was the whole reason for this thread. The stock pan hangs too low for many of our applications. If it's feasible, Bill might make this a 2 piece pan that can be reversed for front or rear sump setups. I don't know that this would make financial sense though. Perhaps just see how the first batch goes.

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:00 am

jeffball610 wrote:I would think the stock pickup tube would be too long. It goes into the stock pan, which is pretty deep. This was the whole reason for this thread. The stock pan hangs too low for many of our applications. If it's feasible, Bill might make this a 2 piece pan that can be reversed for front or rear sump setups. I don't know that this would make financial sense though. Perhaps just see how the first batch goes.

duh, yeah if you used the stock pick up the pan would be just as deep as before. hmmm, it seems easy enough to just make an adapter for a sr20 pan. Any ideas for a dipstick as the stock one will be to long? would it be possible to use the oem tube, maybe even cut the oem dipstick?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:15 pm

need2boostpsi wrote: Any ideas for a dipstick as the stock one will be to long? would it be possible to use the oem tube, maybe even cut the oem dipstick?

Those are the details I tend to look past on my initial thought process. Thanks for bringing it up.
I guess you could cut the stock unit and make new measurements on the "new" stick.
You could add a section of tube on top of the stock dipstick tube to compensate for the loss in depth.
Or you could guess if there's enough oil in it.

CarRacer · Post by **CarRacer** » Sun Jun 19, 2011 1:00 am

Easiest thing to do would be to drain the oil out if the motor (easy to do with a new oil pan) and then fill it with 5 quarts or whatever the capacity of the new pan is. Wait a bit for it to all drain into the pan and then notch the dipstick at the new oil level. That's your new fill level with out any guessing needed.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Jun 20, 2011 9:45 am

jeffball610 wrote:I would think the stock pickup tube would be too long. It goes into the stock pan, which is pretty deep. This was the whole reason for this thread. The stock pan hangs too low for many of our applications. If it's feasible, Bill might make this a 2 piece pan that can be reversed for front or rear sump setups. I don't know that this would make financial sense though. Perhaps just see how the first batch goes.

this is an excellent idea jeff, its been long overdue, I have some things going on .................mannnnnnnnnnnn do I have stuff going on
but when I built the housings, I always added the two lower bolt holes in the skirt, the reason I did that was because I wanted to complete the bellhousing with a properly baffled oil pan that would bolt up to the bellhousing and give it strength

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:28 pm

I just thought of a complication the other day. The 7-bolt and 6-bolt oil pans are a little different. I think it might only be the oil pump/cover area, but I'm not positive. Some provisions would need to be made if this is cast to accommodate both designs to save time and money. I'm sure Bill will figure all of this out, but I thought I might mention it.
Another thought is to cast or build 6 and 7 bolt upper pans with "universal" lower pans. This could also benefit in the idea of having separate lower pans for front sump, rear sump, and dry sump setups. It gets complicated real fast, but a decent priced low profile bolt on solution would be great. Then other options can be decided on if the market dictates more solutions.

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:56 pm

jeffball610 wrote:I just thought of a complication the other day. The 7-bolt and 6-bolt oil pans are a little different. I think it might only be the oil pump/cover area, but I'm not positive. Some provisions would need to be made if this is cast to accommodate both designs to save time and money. I'm sure Bill will figure all of this out, but I thought I might mention it.
Another thought is to cast or build 6 and 7 bolt upper pans with "universal" lower pans. This could also benefit in the idea of having separate lower pans for front sump, rear sump, and dry sump setups. It gets complicated real fast, but a decent priced low profile bolt on solution would be great. Then other options can be decided on if the market dictates more solutions.

best bet would be universal pan and 6-bolt or 7-bolt adapter depending on which one you need. the oil pump and pan are different on a 7-bolt, there would be no way(that I think) of making a universal adapter for both.

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 12:45 pm

bump for updates!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 1:34 pm

I been pushing real hard to change all the bellhousings clutch fork hiegth
I raised the slave cyilinder about 1 1/2 inch on the drivers side for jeff ball , I finished the tailshaft motor mount for screamein eagle and been re programing the GM adapter back into the computer since I had the crash last month

my wife cant walk right now because of the cancer and treatments, so I been working on the housings at night after I put her in bed and helping her with house work during the day

my son is taking next week off and I will be managing the other shop, I will probably review my tax work from last year then and give the accountans the go ahead to file
then when the kid gets back I want to spend a little time on the V 6 C4 set up

I got to take the R 154 out of the mock up and put the W 55 in and build the rear mount for that set up and build a drive shaft

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:45 pm

Sounds like you really got your hands full with all the projects, good to hear you got your CNC machine back up and running keep us posted.
I had no idea your wife was suffering from cancer, it's a terrible disease, My thoughts and prayers go out to you and your family Bill.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:39 pm

I've been doing some reading and thinking about this. The most logical solution seems to be a dry sump system. There's already a thread on here about this and there are a couple of "kits" out there for 7-bolt DSM and EVO blocks. Magnus makes a nice kit that seems a little unorthodox, and there's a couple British companies that make stuff that seems to work.

My first thought was just to make something to add capacity and maybe be "universal" in the sense that it could be for front or rear sump setups. Dry sump seems to fit everything other than DIY budgets. The kits I have seen drive the dry sump system off of the motor and eliminate the stock oil pump gears by casting or machining a new front case.

Maybe there's some middle ground here. Is there a way to run a scavenge pump on the stock crank pulley and create oil pressure using the stock pump? This would eliminate the cost of a new front case and only add a scavenge pump and new oil pan. I have not heard anyone speak poorly about the stock oil pump other than it not being able to supply enough oil pressure beyond 8k RPM.

The other issue seems to be oil drain back from the head. DSMs seem to be really poor at this and EVOs only slightly better. A Kiggly oil pressure valve could help this a lot I would imagine.

So new idea here. A system that is half dry sump and half wet sump. Perhaps modify the stock pan to eliminate the front sump and add scavenge ports leading to a dry sump pump. The pump can be driven off the standard accessory pulley (maybe) and then to a holding tank. The stock oil pickup tube can then have a port on the modified pan drawing oil from the holding tank.

This sounds like a lot when I write it out, but it seems really simple in my mind. Maybe someone with more technical knowledge can shoot down some of my ideas and build up a better one that will actually work. Any thoughts?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:46 am

The Magnus setup looks pretty sweet, but looks like its designed to be more of a stockish replacement.

What would be so hard about making a new front case? If you start with the blank slate of the stock block / head / crank / cam gears and forget about using the same timing belt, tensioners, timing belt cover, I believe it could be made with a simple 1/4" piece of aluminum with the following considerations:

1) regulated oil pressure to the main galley, maybe retain the oil filter housing to regulate pressure? Would require some machining of a pathway for oil on the back of the plate.
2) flange to bolt oil pan to... but will be negated by making a dry sump pan with a flat front. Drill and tap the bottom edge of the new front case.
3) front main seal retainer.

Additionally, you would be free to do a different configuration for the timing belt, idler, tensioner and water pump. Could do away with all the cast parts and even go with a spring tensioner rather than hydraulic (works on Mazdas just fine). I'd probably just bolt a 2nd crank timing sprocket to the front with longer bolts and run a 2nd belt off that to the oil pump.

need2boostpsi · Post by **need2boostpsi** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 4:15 pm

I can't speak on dry sump setups as im only familiar with them, I know they can be expensive but that's because the CANNOT fail especially with the amount of money most of their users have tied into their motors. If you try to cut corners or cost you end up with a less reliable system which i wouldn't want to take a risk of something minor going wrong and leading to loss of oil pressure and a useless paperweight of what once was a built motor.

however on the subject of oil drain back, one of the easiest ways to help this issue would be to tap the block for a catch can(some people just tap the block and run it the valve cover or lower part of the head, this is not what I'm recommending). At high rpms crankcase pressure exceeds the force of gravity preventing the oil from quickly draining back down through the rather small diameter holes in the head and block. couple this problem with high revving motors, thicker weight oils, and stock oil flow regulators can cause oil to stay in the head or be blown into the valve cover breather ports or added catch can setups. adding a large catch can to the block has been one of the best things that i have found to help with excessive crankcase pressure as well as oil draining issues. my setup runs from the intake(drivers) side of the block with a -12 up to a large oil catch can, now my catch can on my head never has a drop of oil in it.

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:47 pm

A friend of mine has the magus dry sump on his 1g race car and it was about $14k. I'd rather spend $500 on a oil pan.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 2:11 pm

Magnus full kit sells for $5k.
http://magnusmotorsports.com/products/d ... p-full-kit
That's still a lot to me.
AP Tuning in the UK sells this for about $3200. Made by Pace Products and seems to use the stock oil filter housing.
http://www.ap-tuning.co.uk/EvoDrySump.html
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/public_ht ... 6&parent=3
Melon Racing sells a AMS kit that is not listed on the AMS page for $5k
http://www.mellonracing.com/index.php?m ... be26b144a5
Norris Designs in the UK has one for just over $3200.
http://www.norrisdesigns.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DRYS01

Of course all of these are made for the 7-bolt motor. Just some thoughts on design ideas.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:06 am

5K FOR DRY SUMP? WOW! we can beat that >;O) even $500 for an oil pan is too much

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:42 am

His is 6bolt I'm pretty sure his is one of 3 or 4 for his particular setup. It tool the 6 months to get it done. Maybe since the 7 bolt is more off the shelf it's cheaper. I dunno

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:47 pm

hey dave, have you tried the mounts?

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:05 pm

The car is on jackstands now. I have limited time so little by little I've been working on it.