turbo elimination

[arrowhead]

Hello
Need info on elimination of turbo I know everyone going the other way and i wish i did not have to do it but class rules say i must.

the car is a 98 talon tsi , what else will i have to modify, i have seen a few starions without them

any mods to ecu, maf, or other changes to then improve perf as a n/a, i want to stay with f/i.

thanks
arrowhead

[screemin eagle]

Look for a galant with a 2.4 twin cam. IIRC it's a 94 I could be wring though. Only problem is the car is going to be a dud with the turbo gearing for the awd.

[arrowhead]

hey eagle the car is a fwd not an awd[/quote]

[lsr mike]

Intake Manifold, exhaust manifold, wrong routing, Injectors are too big, ECU has the wrong fuel curve, Compression is too low for NA competition. you have a big job ahead.

[arrowhead]

hello mike
thanks for your reply engine at this time is lock up this is a car i bought for road racing,
the engine is going to be rebuild,with maybe 11to 1 or 12 to 1 pistons, comp valve job,
slight porting, to increase flow of course header etc, i am sorry but i do not understand wrong routing the main reason for my questions is to get info on what others may have done so i can get a better idea on like you mentioned injector sizes and what was done to the ecu, or maybe dump the f/i and use carbs or some kind of tbi.

thanks for your reply
arrowhead

[screemin eagle]

gearing is still not the same as a n/t gear box. no one really takes a turbo 2g and goes n/a. the n/a 2g motors are a 420a (neon motor) or a 4g64 sohc in a spyder. if you were to go n/a you would have to locate a mass and injectors from the 2.4 twin cam galant. i think the injectors size is 250cc's or so. you would probly be better off finding info at http://www.thegalantcenter.net/ it would be your best bet for 2g n/a info.

[89coltgt]

If I were building something like that, I'd start with a much lighter chassis first.

[arrowhead]

gearing is still not the same as a n/t gear box. no one really takes a turbo 2g and goes n/a. the n/a 2g motors are a 420a (neon motor) or a 4g64 sohc in a spyder. if you were to go n/a you would have to locate a mass and injectors from the 2.4 twin cam galant. i think the injectors size is 250cc's or so. you would probly be better off finding info at http://www.thegalantcenter.net/ it would be your best bet for 2g n/a info.

Thanks for the link

Please read my post under project cars --total hybrid----

I understand what you ar saying eventually i intend to convert to a 2.4 with the 2.0 head, this will be strictly a race car only for the tract, so i know there will be more challenges ahead.

injector sizes will vary depending on engine mods, and a lot of people do take turbos out and replace with either carbs or or other types of fuel inyection. it may not be very common for the sreet racers or the drag strip but remember we have to make our power the old fashion way from the inside, not from the outside.

with a higher comp. better flow from the head and cam. plus other twiks, heck i may be close tu the turbo injectors again thanks for your info.

[arrowhead]

If I were building something like that, I'd start with a much lighter chassis first.

thanks for your reply
I could not agree with you more since going as light as possible is free hp
when I started thinking about road racing again I tried to buy a firearrow that I had sold a few years back but the guy is building it again for another class in SCCA
The firearrow I used to race it in a class call ITB but my plans were for a local club and replace the 2.6 with a 4g63 I had pretty good luck with that car and it was very competitive.
Hence my user id of arrowhead, this car would have been a killer in this class becouse
of the power to weight ratio.

Now to weights of the other cars in the class please read my post on project cars ----total hybrid---- since anything can be done, all the other cars in the class have weight reductions to the max.

Starting with curb weight i get a pretty good idea where the talon falls and anything possible that can be removed will be removed plus I can work with fiberglass and make a lot of my own parts

talon curb weight from 2739 to 2850 depends if car has fluids or not

mustang 4 cyl 2,3 3100 to 3250
jetta 3230
civic 2628
mazda3 2685
mazda rx8 2825
corolla 2530

As you can see i am in the ball park with the talon I will be taking pictures and updates

I would very much like to see whatever suggestions or ideas anyone may have .
this is the way we all benefit

thank you

[lsr mike]

If your going to re-build the engine, then I have plenty of notes from my 4G64 SOHC N/A Build. 275CC injectors are stock, I got a E-prom ECU and 450CC injectors and a custom eprom for the injectors and raising the RPM Limit to 9000. Real Strong Springs for the Head, Solid Rockers, the hydraulic won't handle the spring pressure. Shortened the intake runners for more HP, not as much torque. I have a 282 duration Cam. you can also go with a aftermarket ECU and skip the prom routine. you get speed density instead of a MAF and you need to use a Turbo Throttle body but that's good! they're bigger. I went that route before I turbocharged. Intake and exhaust manifolds are a matter of what head you use.

I was getting production records at 120MPH before I went turbo.

[89coltgt]

A base model 93-96 Mitsubishi Mirage 2 door curb weight is ~2080 lbs, this is the chasssis that I had in mind.

[arrowhead]

Intake Manifold, exhaust manifold, wrong routing, Injectors are too big, ECU has the wrong fuel curve, Compression is too low for NA competition. you have a big job ahead.

mike i understand erything you are mentioning except ----wrong routing---please explain

thaks

[arrowhead]

A base model 93-96 Mitsubishi Mirage 2 door curb weight is ~2080 lbs, this is the chasssis that I had in mind.

I could have been abetter choice as far as weight, but i got this talon at a price i could not refused and in the long run the talon will be a better choice, suspension being one thing and less adapting of parts.

thanks keep your sugg. coming.
,

[4g63opelgt]

Hey Arrowhead, if you could locate a '95 Eprom ECU, you could then swap it in place of the '98 ECU. If you are familiar with dsmlink a.k.a. ECMTuning, you could get the ECU set up with that. Then, you can change just about anything with the fuel, airflow, and timing maps to support your build. It also has provisions to control nitrous with parameters you set. It would also allow you to datalog, as well as many other features (speed density is available too) Here is a link:

http://ecmtuning.com/

It may be more money than you want to spend, but the features are great.

Just deleting the turbo will probably not give you a very competitive car. The compression ratio for 98 is 9.8 I think. Isn't there a class you can run with a FWD turbo car? But yeah, if you want to stay on the cheap side of things, you could get a mitsubishi turbine exhaust flange (or make one) (roadraceengineering has them), make a section that dimensionally is the same length/height as the turbo (3" piece of exhaust, tapered down), put a two bolt flange on the bottom to bolt up the down pipe . You will have to cap the turbo oil return line at the oil pan and block the oil supply off. The coolant lines for the turbo will have to be dealt with as well.
Then on the intake side, you won't need the intercooler. The air would go through the MAF sensor, and then the air could go straight to the throttlebody elbow. You will wind up with unused vacuum/boost lines that could be tagged and capped incase you ever want to put the car back. The wastegate, blowoff, boost control solenoid come to mind, but I'm sure there are others. You could try to fab something up so you get a ram air effect for the air intake - remember it was used to seeing higher than atmospheric!
You could still use the MAF and injectors from the car, but you would have to alter the look up tables in the ECU when it goes into open loop - that's why I suggested dsmlink.
That would be a start. Definitely if you are going to rebuild the motor, it would be of benefit to increase the compression ratio. There is a ton of things you could do, but not being familiar with what class you are running and what rules allow, stroking or destroking the motor may not be an option.
I hope this helps and I hope your project comes out to your satisfaction. Good luck and keep the updates coming.
-David

[arrowhead]

hey dave

thanks for your info please read my post under project cars ---total hybrid------

there is another class that i could race but since these are open classes only parameters are the engine size and turbo or not, to go up in class since i would have the turbo would make the car non competitive, another is that the shortest race
is at least 1/2 hr, we also run enduros of 1-3-6 hrs. the maintenance of a turbo car would kill me.

We mostly race at homestead speedway road course, some races include turns 3 and 4
which are the bank turns, we also going to have some events at morosso speedway and maybe one at sebring,
We can stroke, destroke, as long as we stay within engine sizes in my case from 2.0 to 2.5
There are not any mitsus running at this time. Everyone that i have spoken to locally
have told me that n/a 2.0 just dont run but they are from the street scene or drag racing. I think this car could be competitive also a spare motor is a must so it gives a chance to try differnt things.

Your idea of bypassing the turbo sounds interesting I have to digest it a little more,
now on the 95 ecu vs the 98 what is the difference I am stlll behind on all the options on the electronics if i can save some money that would be nice.

I thank you very much for your info get back with any sugg.

arrowhead

[4g63opelgt]

Well, the link I posted for ecmtuning has all the info on why the 95-97 EPROM ECU is better than the 98. If you look it over, I'm sure you can spend quite a bit of time on their site and get some idea of what the potential is on the ECU upgrade. For the price, it is money well spent IMO.

I found the total hybrid post a while back and wasn't sure what your intentions were with the car. I wasn't sure if you were going to make the car RWD and delete the turbo, or if you had a 420A motor. Now I have a little bit better idea. You have a 98 Talon FWD with a 4G63, that you want to prepare for a class of racing, and you would like to omit the turbo (atleast for now). The car is in good shape, but the motor is locked up.

If you got a 95-97 ECU and got the ECMTuning V3 package, you could address fuel curves, airflow and timing. It is a very straightforward swap into the 98 car. The ECU plugs right in. DSM changed the CAS after 96, so you will have to select invert CAS signal and swap spark plug wires. They can convert non-EPROM ECUs, but it looks like the 97 ECU is the cut off.
Read about it here:

http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/epromid

They have a great wiki off their homepage that has a lot of info on the how, what, if, etc.

The transmission is really not that big of a deal. There are many options for trans builds and if you are going to n/a, I bet it will hold up just fine. If you search Jacks Transmissions, John Shepherd Trans, TRE, there is a lot of good info and tech tips on what you can do to a 2G trans. Shorter gears, taller gears, double synchros, etc. You don't have to run out and spend $2k on a trans. The info is a great start and if you want to build it yourself, it is a great way to see what has been done before and if it worked. Jack's Transmissions website has a lot of good info.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/tech-articles

You probably already know of the crank swaps that are available for the 4G63. It is possible to stroke/destroke the motor and still stay in the displacement regulation. It depends on what you want out of the motor (ie revs, torque, cost of the build, etc.)
I think everyone was a little confused at what you were doing. This is, afterall, a forum for guys putting a 4G63 engine in a RWD configuration!
But we are all here to help out. It sounds like a cool project. I keep thinking if you went somewhere in the middle on the 4G63 engine build, you could run the same car in n/a and turbo class and download the turbo map to the ECU. You would have to swap the turbo, intercooler, and piping back in, but it could be done. It sounds to me like you have a whole lot of reading to catch up on. Good luck with it and keep the updates coming. I hope this helps you out.
-David

[arrowhead]

Well, the link I posted for ecmtuning has all the info on why the 95-97 EPROM ECU is better than the 98. If you look it over, I'm sure you can spend quite a bit of time on their site and get some idea of what the potential is on the ECU upgrade. For the price, it is money well spent IMO.

I found the total hybrid post a while back and wasn't sure what your intentions were with the car. I wasn't sure if you were going to make the car RWD and delete the turbo, or if you had a 420A motor. Now I have a little bit better idea. You have a 98 Talon FWD with a 4G63, that you want to prepare for a class of racing, and you would like to omit the turbo (atleast for now). The car is in good shape, but the motor is locked up.

If you got a 95-97 ECU and got the ECMTuning V3 package, you could address fuel curves, airflow and timing. It is a very straightforward swap into the 98 car. The ECU plugs right in. DSM changed the CAS after 96, so you will have to select invert CAS signal and swap spark plug wires. They can convert non-EPROM ECUs, but it looks like the 97 ECU is the cut off.
Read about it here:

http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/epromid

They have a great wiki off their homepage that has a lot of info on the how, what, if, etc.

The transmission is really not that big of a deal. There are many options for trans builds and if you are going to n/a, I bet it will hold up just fine. If you search Jacks Transmissions, John Shepherd Trans, TRE, there is a lot of good info and tech tips on what you can do to a 2G trans. Shorter gears, taller gears, double synchros, etc. You don't have to run out and spend $2k on a trans. The info is a great start and if you want to build it yourself, it is a great way to see what has been done before and if it worked. Jack's Transmissions website has a lot of good info.

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/pages/tech-articles

You probably already know of the crank swaps that are available for the 4G63. It is possible to stroke/destroke the motor and still stay in the displacement regulation. It depends on what you want out of the motor (ie revs, torque, cost of the build, etc.)
I think everyone was a little confused at what you were doing. This is, afterall, a forum for guys putting a 4G63 engine in a RWD configuration!
But we are all here to help out. It sounds like a cool project. I keep thinking if you went somewhere in the middle on the 4G63 engine build, you could run the same car in n/a and turbo class and download the turbo map to the ECU. You would have to swap the turbo, intercooler, and piping back in, but it could be done. It sounds to me like you have a whole lot of reading to catch up on. Good luck with it and keep the updates coming. I hope this helps you out.
-David

Thanks again

The original intention was to convert to a rwd. it is still in the plans but i want to get the car running first, and since i dont want this project to drag on forever, I think getting the engine in order is first, I still have to build the roll cage, and figure the placement of the fuel cell see if i dont have to relocated latter if i go rwd which is my true desire that is the reason why i joined this site.

I know there are a lot of things I have to catch up on,mechanical things do not bother me, been doing a lot of reading on other sites also, and I really have not found a lot on the n/a, like cams, compression, timing curves, etc. but i am getting info here and there this site really is the one.

In road racing there are less problems with trans and clutches since we do not or should not do power shifts, our trans .suffer more on downshifts.
You have given very good info and i thank you for it, anything, anything you can think of please get in touch.

[4g63opelgt]

Hey Arrowhead, for your motor, the number of cranks you can swap into the 4G63 is plentiful. Here is a link to evolutionm.net. All this info comes from someone else's hard work. I have never swapped cranks out of different motors, but it is very commonly done.

http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-engine ... hread.html

Be careful, there may be some info that needs to be double-checked or was corrected. It's better if you look here:

http://projectzerog.com/sirius_engines.shtml

Yeah, I bet you are going to have a tough time finding info where someone has taken a 4G63 from turbo to non-turbo. It doesn't matter though. You can figure it out.
With the electronics, with a turbo ECU that has no way of being calibrated to your set up, once it goes from closed to open loop (WOT for instance), the table it is looking at for fuel and timing is for a turbo car. It would be way off for a car that has been modified with no turbo. Dsmlink allows you to change the look up tables, add larger fuel injectors, set deadtime, activate lauch rpm, adjust airflow while in closed loop, timing, and so much more. To oversimplify this, there are parameters you can adjust for both closed loop and open loop operation. That's why I said you could use the stock injectors, the MAF, even the manifolds. But remember, these were designed for a car that was originally turbo. Manifolds that are designed for a n/a motor would be of better benefit. lsr mike has some impressive credentials under his signature. It might be worth it to see what he is thinking about your idea. He has the experience of getting power from n/a, and the turbo side of it too. As far as availability of cams for the 4G63, there is quite a selection. With all the cams that are available, I'm sure that you should be able to get a good combo. Guys would take HKS 264&272 cams to get what they wanted. It is all online. Alot of reputable shops have done dyno tests and have the curves available on the exact same car with different cams installed for a very objective cam comparison test. Just search it. I am sure there are n/a cams (and combinations of cams) that would fit into (and even came in) the 4g63/4g64 motor you are planning. Whether they will meet or exceed your expectations, I can not answer.
Good luck.
-David

[Verdad]

What class let's you completely modify the drive train, and not run a power adder?
please post what class you are building this car for? The fact the you didn't realize you couldn't run a oem turbo on the car suggest that you are unfamiliar with the rules you are building to.

When we have an idea what your limit is, the suggestions people give you will be accurate to what your needs actually are.

[arrowhead]

What class let's you completely modify the drive train, and not run a power adder?
please post what class you are building this car for? The fact the you didn't realize you couldn't run a oem turbo on the car suggest that you are unfamiliar with the rules you are building to.

When we have an idea what your limit is, the suggestions people give you will be accurate to what your needs actually are.

Thanks for your reply
Not only there are no limits to the drive train, but basically there are class breaks and they are based on engine size and wjthin those breaks turbo engines is a co
nsideration

i did know the class rules from the start the car i got just happend to have a turbo, and if you want to know the class is an MP3 in this club, an SPU in SCCA.
There is a class for this car or any others with turbo, but in my case with a turbo the car would not be competitive in the other class.


All sugg. given to me so far have been very helpful, please read from the beginning
you may get a better idea.

Have you read a rule book for SCCA, TRANS-AM, ARCA, MINI STOCKS, NASCAR ,
WORLD OF OUTLAWS ETC

Go to FARAUSA read the rules and maybe you can also give me helpful info.


Again thanks for your reply

[arrowhead]

HEY 4g63 thanks for your interest your input is very valuable, between reading, working and trying to work on the car things go slow,

I will try to get more info from mike he already posted here, see how he can also help.

again thanks I am sure I will have more questions later

arrowhead

[arrowhead]

What class let's you completely modify the drive train, and not run a power adder?
please post what class you are building this car for? The fact the you didn't realize you couldn't run a oem turbo on the car suggest that you are unfamiliar with the rules you are building to.

When we have an idea what your limit is, the suggestions people give you will be accurate to what your needs actually are.

Hey verdad since you live in south florida I am sure we are very close to each other since i live in south miami.

I think the next event will be Feb 19 at Homestead then on April 3 at Morosso in west palm beach if you would like to attend PM me or e-mail and we can get together.

By the way there is a test and tune tomorrow at HOMESTEAD.

arrowhead

[dees75z]

Intake Manifold, exhaust manifold, wrong routing, Injectors are too big, ECU has the wrong fuel curve, Compression is too low for NA competition. you have a big job ahead.

^^^this