Piston options

[boostaddict]

Hey guys, I finally have my major mechanical bits for my starion swap, I have a 4g64 6 bolt wideblock, and a 4g63 head, still sourcing odds and ends because my 4g63 motor was not a complete one from the yard. I plan on using some 1g rods in my block with the 4g64 crank but cannot seem to find where everyone is getting there pistons for this build. I am shooting for 400-450hp max. Where can I get some pistons for my 2.4 6 bolt wideblock that can handle the abuse I am going to throw at them? Also what CR should I shoot for, I want it to run on 91 octane.

[OLDIE]

Hey guys, I finally have my major mechanical bits for my starion swap, I have a 4g64 6 bolt wideblock, and a 4g63 head, still sourcing odds and ends because my 4g63 motor was not a complete one from the yard. I plan on using some 1g rods in my block with the 4g64 crank but cannot seem to find where everyone is getting there pistons for this build. I am shooting for 400-450hp max. Where can I get some pistons for my 2.4 6 bolt wideblock that can handle the abuse I am going to throw at them? Also what CR should I shoot for, I want it to run on 91 octane.

I have a Wiseco/Eagle forged bottom end in my 2323cc stroker with app8.7 cr

[boostaddict]

What kind of boost are you pushing with it and are you using pump gas? Do you wish you would have went higher or lower in CR?

[lsr mike]

Talk to Nick, mention Mike and my Bonneville Truck

I've bought 3 sets of Pistons from him for my 4G64 2 sets NA and one set Turbo

http://www.atomicspeedware.com/

[Mad Menace]

Definitely go with the lower CR if you wanna run crazy boost... or put in some flat toppers and run a 4g63 crank (12mm LESS stroke) and 1g turbo big rods and run crazy RPM and Boost together with no chance of engine interference in the case of a lost timing belt. and probably about 7.0:1 CR, possibly even less.

Just my 2 cents.

[boostaddict]

Well I found out that weisco is the cheap option at this point, they make a set for this application which was suprising, JE doesn't make them so thats a custom set $$$$$, Mahle was the same way $$$$ customs. The Weisco ones aren't too expensive at like $550 shipped with wrist pins, and rings, also they are 8.5:1, at least I think that what the guy said... anyways. But still gotta wait awhile for those, today I checked all my crank journals and main cap bolt shaft length to make sure they were within spec (which they were), I get my block and head back tomorrow, 2 of my valves would only hold 5in. of vacuum cause they were leaking at the seats but, it wasn't warped at all, so I think I will be replacing the valves, guides, and maybe springs (maybe some good aftermarket springs?). I have to check my crank for end play tomorrow when I get my block back and get some ACL bearings coming in the mail for the bottom end, balance shaft elim kit already on the way from FFWD. I am definitely running some 1g big rods, haven't decided if I am going to use the 2.4 crank or the 2.0 crank yet, I think I will stick with the 2.4 though, the Starion trans supposedly cannot handle the higher RPMS so I might as will build it for some grunt to make up for that!! Slowly but surely its coming together, muahahahaha!

[Mad Menace]

Well I found out that weisco is the cheap option at this point, they make a set for this application which was suprising, JE doesn't make them so thats a custom set $$$$$, Mahle was the same way $$$$ customs. The Weisco ones aren't too expensive at like $550 shipped with wrist pins, and rings, also they are 8.5:1, at least I think that what the guy said... anyways. But still gotta wait awhile for those, today I checked all my crank journals and main cap bolt shaft length to make sure they were within spec (which they were), I get my block and head back tomorrow, 2 of my valves would only hold 5in. of vacuum cause they were leaking at the seats but, it wasn't warped at all, so I think I will be replacing the valves, guides, and maybe springs (maybe some good aftermarket springs?). I have to check my crank for end play tomorrow when I get my block back and get some ACL bearings coming in the mail for the bottom end, balance shaft elim kit already on the way from FFWD. I am definitely running some 1g big rods, haven't decided if I am going to use the 2.4 crank or the 2.0 crank yet, I think I will stick with the 2.4 though, the Starion trans supposedly cannot handle the higher RPMS so I might as will build it for some grunt to make up for that!! Slowly but surely its coming together, muahahahaha!

I see a few things I need to mention here... I believe the set of pistons I had machined for me were JE pistons in the beginning of life and Id stay away from Weisco as it seems they have been producing shit parts ever since they outsourced to Japan (theres TONS of videos on YouTube of Weisco ill manufactured and/or non-fitting parts) and eliminating the balance shafts from experience brings on a whole new world of "nut and bolting" your ride back together every few days... but if you insist, DO NOT use the shaft elimination kit that does not have the groove for the oil pressure... if you do youll regret it. and if the 1g big rods fit with the 2.4 crank Ill be surprised cause they didnt fit together when I tried it

[boostaddict]

The balance shaft kit I got coming is from FFWD, the stubby shaft has the oil groove, its all mitsu parts sold by them in the kit. As far as the pistons go I haven't decided to go with weisco yet, I might have a custom set made. I knew you had fitment issues with the 1g rods on your build but your using a 7bolt block, mines a 6bolt and I will have the 1g rods later today, they are coming in a 4g63 longblock I just aquired. I will test fit them when I get to that point and let you know. One build I saw they machined the block to accept those rods, DSMtuners build, but I'm not sure if that's the way I wanna do it if they don't fit, haha. That build was a 7bolt build though, all the 6bolt builds I have read on other sites haven't mentioned any issues with 1g rods fitting, most of them actually are using h-beams though.

[OLDIE]

Addict is correct .Thr 1g rods are wider at the crank end than 2g's .Over here we had some 2.4 1g wideblocks and a mate of mine has twin cammed one

[biglady112]

Wow, misinformation again. I guess this board needs someone to clean up around here.

All sirius series engines run the same rods. 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 and 2.4 liter motors all run the same size rods.

And getting a set of "custom" pistons is no more expensive than an off the shelf set. Obviously one manufacturer is more than the other, given the quality of materials, process and design.

Wiesco is not a bad manufacturer. They run probably in more motors than most manufacturers in the world. Not just dsms, but motorcycles and other internal combustion engines. I am by no means a wiesco fan, nor will I ever personally own a set as they don't offer what I am looking for, but they will work well just as another other piston will. And I am pretty sure they are american made. Mahles truly are junk(first hand experience) and ARE NOT made in the USA. They are no better than the cheapest offering from wiesco for a 4G63.

If you choose a $200-300 set of pistons, you get what you pay for. A thin skirt desig and a thin walled wrist pin made from crappy steel.

I have as well as my friends and THOUSANDS of other dsmers run years and thousands of miles without balnce shafts. I also run three aluminum and one steel motor mount(truly solid) and never have to NUT AND BOLT my car back together. But I have a race car and not some turd. My car is solid and well thought out, not cobbled together, so that could be a difference why I don't experience those issues. Then again my friends have been running for years and have no issues with stock mounts. Some vibrations yes, but nothing that can't be handled.

[boostaddict]

Wow, misinformation again. I guess this board needs someone to clean up around here.

All sirius series engines run the same rods. 1.6, 1.8, 2.0 and 2.4 liter motors all run the same size rods.

And getting a set of "custom" pistons is no more expensive than an off the shelf set. Obviously one manufacturer is more than the other, given the quality of materials, process and design.

Wiesco is not a bad manufacturer. They run probably in more motors than most manufacturers in the world. Not just dsms, but motorcycles and other internal combustion engines. I am by no means a wiesco fan, nor will I ever personally own a set as they don't offer what I am looking for, but they will work well just as another other piston will. And I am pretty sure they are american made. Mahles truly are junk(first hand experience) and ARE NOT made in the USA. They are no better than the cheapest offering from wiesco for a 4G63.

If you choose a $200-300 set of pistons, you get what you pay for. A thin skirt desig and a thin walled wrist pin made from crappy steel.

I have as well as my friends and THOUSANDS of other dsmers run years and thousands of miles without balnce shafts. I also run three aluminum and one steel motor mount(truly solid) and never have to NUT AND BOLT my car back together. But I have a race car and not some turd. My car is solid and well thought out, not cobbled together, so that could be a difference why I don't experience those issues. Then again my friends have been running for years and have no issues with stock mounts. Some vibrations yes, but nothing that can't be handled.

Ok, well first of all what I have learned is a custom set of pistons runs around $800-$900, the off the shelf ones I have found are all in around the $500 range so there is a difference in price for those, this was confirmed by the many phone calls I made the other day directly to the manfactures. Who makes these $200-$300 pistons you speak of?? Also the rods between the 6bolt and 7bolt are not interchangeable, at least from what I read on the main site, also confirmed by madmenace when he tried to use the 1g 6bolt 4g63 turbo rods in his 7bolt 4g64 and they did not work. Its all here in this info from the main site.

"The 4G6x family was released in 1980 as the "Sirius 80" in 4G Galants and 2G Lancers. In 1982 Mitsubishi (MMC) released the "Sirius Dash" in the Starion and Lancer EX turbo. The original 6 bolt (flywheel) engine went through some minor changes throughout the 80s. By 1989 it had a DOHC head on models such as the 1G Eclipse, 6G Galant and 3G Mirage. 6 bolt engines continued until mid 1993.

All 4G6x engines produced after would have 7 bolt cranks. Several changes were made including crank journal width and the oil pump bolt pattern on the front of the block. These changes made swapping cranks, oil pumps and some other parts between the two impossible. Swapping heads and some timing parts was still possible. These engines were used in EvoI-III, 2G Eclipses, 7G Galants, Mighty Max pickups, among others."

I copy and pasted this from the main site, www.projectzerog.com .

As for weisco they are a decent manufacturer, not top notch but good. It all comes down to the person building the motor in long run I think. There are things that need to be checked before assembly, not only checked but if something is out of spec it should be addressed appropriately. Checking bearing, piston, bore, and many other clearances is a must. Also getting internals balanced as well is a good thing to take advantage of when you have it all apart, balancing the internals can combat the the balance shaft elimination and make it run smoother. Also throwing in some bridged main caps wouldn't hurt, but that depends on your goals and budget because they need to be machined. As for my original question, I just wanted to know what other people were using and how they liked it, and how much it ran them. Also I was looking for negative feedback from certain people too about how some pistons are better than others. So far my own research of this has been proving to alot more informative, haha.

[biglady112]

I said same length, I should have been more specific but was on a rant. Yes the big ends of the rods are defintely different in width. But if you are talented enough, or have a machinist who is, you CAN modify a 6 bolt rod to fit on a 7 bolt crank. There is just to much end play to trust a7 bolt rod on a 6 bolt crank though.

I am sorry you have had such bad luck with pricing. We had a $1300 set of arias/atomic pistons before. They were super trick with a .230 wall wrist pin. But the motor went super lean and they melted quick, fast and in a hurry.

I really like regular Arias pistons. They run 600-700 for off the shelf. We run a different style ring and a nasty wrist pin, so they run us 750-850. But the pistons are still the same price. At least for us, maybe I just get to the right guys when I call.

[boostaddict]

I thought I recognized your screen name, are you on CODSM too?

[biglady112]

Yeah, I added the location tonight. I am on codsm. I live downtown denver.

[lsr mike]

Talk to Nick, mention Mike and my Bonneville Truck

I've bought 3 sets of Pistons from him for my 4G64 2 sets NA and one set Turbo

http://www.atomicspeedware.com/

Call Nick, as in Arias III. 3 sets of Custom Pistons, never over $600 with wrist pins and rings, Quit screwing around.

[biglady112]

Exactly what I said. We choose some beefy pins and a total seal ring pack and that shoots the price up. But our first set was 600 bucks.

[boostaddict]

Haha, this is funny, one guy with over 800 posts says weisco, 2 guys with alot less say Arias. I am gonna call atomicspeedware today and see what my options are and how much to get them to my door. I would like to say again that my goals for this are somewhat modest, I am not shooting for anything over 450hp, I can't afford to go any higher than that and would like to leave my trans and rear end alone. I know I will need a better clutch and flywheel. With that being said $1300 pistons are out of the question, I am not looking to break any records, I just want to build a fun car for street driving, auto-x rarely, and hit the track maybe 2 or three times a year to see what it does in the 1/4. So thats why I was considering the weisco pistons, if the Arias ones are comparible I will more than likely go with them. As far as customs go so far, they have all been way too much money, why would I have a custom set made and then use them on the stock rods, haha. If I was going to get that crazy I would be doing H-beams, forged crank, bridged main caps, balance everything, etc.... There is no need for this for what I am trying to accomplish.

[biglady112]

Call Arias, Not Nick Arias(atomic speedware). The original arias are stout and cheaper than the speedware stuff. The $1300 set we had was Atomic.

[lsr mike]

Atomic's stuff comes from Arias factory, Nick 3 just does the engineering.

get what you can afford. Here's a pix of my 10:1 I'm using in my turbo setup



I've got a heat resistant top coat, and a slick side coat. but it's an extreme application.

[77amc]

How about these?

http://www.probeindustries.com/v/downlo ... onform.pdf

http://www.venolia.com/products.html

http://www.nfspistons.com/

http://www.cp-carrillo.com/



I'm a little stumped by your request.

1: It seems to me that you want the 'premium' custom, 4g64 piston for cheap..
I'm not dogging you, I'm in the same position. Just the build will be at a later date.
2: Your HP goal is fairly low for what i've seen made with the 4g64 (Streetfire, Youtube, etc..) With the money considered for the pistons, why not higher?

E

[boostaddict]

Well my goal is what my trans can handle basicly, 450hp is a lot of power and I think I will be happy with it for this car. I want a streetable car that I can track and auto-x. I think that goal is easily attainable and can be made "reliable". If I was gonna shoot for 600hp I would be using a different block and trans all together.

[boostaddict]

How much were the JEs? Weisco does make them, they run $550 shipped. Also arias (nick) quoted me a custom set for like $650.

[TsTKl]

Definitely go with the lower CR if you wanna run crazy boost... or put in some flat toppers and run a 4g63 crank (12mm LESS stroke) and 1g turbo big rods and run crazy RPM and Boost together with no chance of engine interference in the case of a lost timing belt. and probably about 7.0:1 CR, possibly even less.

Just my 2 cents.

You know an interferance motor will always be an interferance motor, right?

And getting a set of "custom" pistons is no more expensive than an off the shelf set. Obviously one manufacturer is more than the other, given the quality of materials, process and design.

Wiesco is not a bad manufacturer. They run probably in more motors than most manufacturers in the world. Not just dsms, but motorcycles and other internal combustion engines. I am by no means a wiesco fan, nor will I ever personally own a set as they don't offer what I am looking for, but they will work well just as another other piston will. And I am pretty sure they are american made. Mahles truly are junk(first hand experience) and ARE NOT made in the USA. They are no better than the cheapest offering from wiesco for a 4G63.

If you choose a $200-300 set of pistons, you get what you pay for. A thin skirt desig and a thin walled wrist pin made from crappy steel.

I have as well as my friends and THOUSANDS of other dsmers run years and thousands of miles without balnce shafts. I also run three aluminum and one steel motor mount(truly solid) and never have to NUT AND BOLT my car back together. But I have a race car and not some turd. My car is solid and well thought out, not cobbled together, so that could be a difference why I don't experience those issues. Then again my friends have been running for years and have no issues with stock mounts. Some vibrations yes, but nothing that can't be handled.

I like to think I know quite a few people in the auto industry and get discounts quite often, but custom pistons were 800-900 dollars when I called about them, compared to the average 500-600 for off the shelf pistons. You might get a deal, but normal people definately don't.

wiesco is actually the only company I've seen bad press about in the dsm community. Both their HD line and their standard line. It seems that all of the standard line is cracking along the part of the skirt where the wrint pin housing meets the skirt. Its a very tiny skirt and with how many people have run those pistons in these engines, I don't think it causes a problem, but I'm not putting a set of pistons into my car that is known for cracking.

I'm curious as to what you've experienced that is bad about the mahles. They make the evo 8,9 and 10 pistons and yes they are not made in the USA, they are a german company. Weiscos are made in china, whats your point? Mahle also makes a ton of F1 pistons, and happened to be one of the few companies which makes a dsm piston to the correct compression height.

I too have run tons of cars without balance shafts and had no issues. Mitsubishi gave up on balance shafts.



and please for the love of god whoever mentioned slowboyracing, don't ever shop there. They are horrible. Do what I did, search all the manufacturers catalogs, get the part number of the exact part you want, and then call a parts dealer and order the parts. I had mine in 2 days from a warehouse 200 miles from my house. They get drop shipped anyways so it doesn't matter who you buy it from.

[boostaddict]

Definitely go with the lower CR if you wanna run crazy boost... or put in some flat toppers and run a 4g63 crank (12mm LESS stroke) and 1g turbo big rods and run crazy RPM and Boost together with no chance of engine interference in the case of a lost timing belt. and probably about 7.0:1 CR, possibly even less.

Just my 2 cents.

You know an interferance motor will always be an interferance motor, right?

And getting a set of "custom" pistons is no more expensive than an off the shelf set. Obviously one manufacturer is more than the other, given the quality of materials, process and design.

Wiesco is not a bad manufacturer. They run probably in more motors than most manufacturers in the world. Not just dsms, but motorcycles and other internal combustion engines. I am by no means a wiesco fan, nor will I ever personally own a set as they don't offer what I am looking for, but they will work well just as another other piston will. And I am pretty sure they are american made. Mahles truly are junk(first hand experience) and ARE NOT made in the USA. They are no better than the cheapest offering from wiesco for a 4G63.

If you choose a $200-300 set of pistons, you get what you pay for. A thin skirt desig and a thin walled wrist pin made from crappy steel.

I have as well as my friends and THOUSANDS of other dsmers run years and thousands of miles without balnce shafts. I also run three aluminum and one steel motor mount(truly solid) and never have to NUT AND BOLT my car back together. But I have a race car and not some turd. My car is solid and well thought out, not cobbled together, so that could be a difference why I don't experience those issues. Then again my friends have been running for years and have no issues with stock mounts. Some vibrations yes, but nothing that can't be handled.

I like to think I know quite a few people in the auto industry and get discounts quite often, but custom pistons were 800-900 dollars when I called about them, compared to the average 500-600 for off the shelf pistons. You might get a deal, but normal people definately don't.

wiesco is actually the only company I've seen bad press about in the dsm community. Both their HD line and their standard line. It seems that all of the standard line is cracking along the part of the skirt where the wrint pin housing meets the skirt. Its a very tiny skirt and with how many people have run those pistons in these engines, I don't think it causes a problem, but I'm not putting a set of pistons into my car that is known for cracking.

I'm curious as to what you've experienced that is bad about the mahles. They make the evo 8,9 and 10 pistons and yes they are not made in the USA, they are a german company. Weiscos are made in china, whats your point? Mahle also makes a ton of F1 pistons, and happened to be one of the few companies which makes a dsm piston to the correct compression height.

I too have run tons of cars without balance shafts and had no issues. Mitsubishi gave up on balance shafts.



and please for the love of god whoever mentioned slowboyracing, don't ever shop there. They are horrible. Do what I did, search all the manufacturers catalogs, get the part number of the exact part you want, and then call a parts dealer and order the parts. I had mine in 2 days from a warehouse 200 miles from my house. They get drop shipped anyways so it doesn't matter who you buy it from.

I think the reason Weisco has gotten bad feedback is because they are the cheapest option available in alot of cases so there will be more people using them due to the price, however you can search for piston failure with any manufacture name and pretty much always find someone that had one or several fail in some application regardless if they knew what they were doing or not. Alot of it comes down to alot of variables that we all will never know what caused them to actually fail, bad tune, incorrect installation, and many more situations. Just because Weisco has had some bad press does'nt mean they are a bad piston producing company, they are one of the cheaper options so they have alot of product on the streets in cars that are not high end, its people like me that can't afford to spend $1000 or more on a custom set and then when they fail for whatever reason they give it bad reviews when they did not buy a set that was specifically designed for there goals. I am going to use Weisco pistons for my build and realize that they aren't the best option but this car isn't being built to break world records, its for me and my goal is set at 450hp max because I don't need a 700hp car. I think failure is from people pushing the envelope on a low budget and then getting upset from throwing a rod or whatever when they could have just built it to withstand that abuse from the start. This option is very pricey though, I also don't understand why that kind of HP is needed, you can barely utilize 400hp without substantial suspension, trans, tires, cage, and many more things anyways because alot of these cars hardly weigh anything to begin with. All I know is I am not building a dyno queen, I am building a fun to drive car that I can play with in the summer months that can be considered reliable, thats what I want, if I wanted more then I would have bought something different. My original question was what pistons would best suit my application, goal 400-450hp on 91 octane, and a good compression ratio, not what are the best pistons. This thread has skewed...... and I really only got one straight answer from Mr.Fancy pants, haha.

[TronCarterIII]

Anybody have any input on Manley pistons? They make them for the 4G64 with 63 DOHC, I've seen them for $420+shipping on ebay.

[boostaddict]

Honestly if they are 3rd party I wouldn't but them, if its a distributor with alot of backround on the product then google there name for reviews. I am buying mine directly from Wiseco that way if they are in anyway wrong when I get them and measure them with my micrometer or damaged while shipping or parts not included I have a leg to stand on when I call them and tell them there is something wrong. Another thing to think about it was are your goals, realistically speaking, what are you building it to do and what kind of numbers do you want? I am going with the Weiscos because they are under $500 and will suit my max goal of 450hp, if I want more after that then I will be building a new motor and possibly even straying away from the 4g series and going to maybe an LS1, 2jz, 6g72, 1uz, or something of that nature that will make more horsepower easier to limit the risk of pushing a smaller motor too far on boost. Goodluck with your decision, also read other builds that are utilizing Manleys and see what they are saying. I think it comes down to what kind of power you can afford safely, haha.

[TronCarterIII]

I looked for reviews on Manley pistons, I couldn't find any. Do you have any specific information or links to what your are eluding to?
Thanks,
Tron