Need some clarification on a few things.

[boostaddict]

Hey guys, I just bought an 86 Starion, anyways I have a few questions that I have been finding different answers for and then would just like some input. First off, I am new to mitsubishis, I have built subarus, volvos, older chevys, and am currently a BMW tech. I bought the Starion because I have always liked them and the body lines are very appealing to me, also seems like a good platform for a fun to drive and inexspenive to build car with the right tools and knowledge. So my questions are as followed:

1. What can the stock Starion trans handle hp wise, not 1/4, more Auto-x, it will be a summer toy/DD, I have found answers ranging from 225whp to 500whp, haha. So if any one knows a ball park that isn't that far apart that would be great.

2. I am looking to build it to make around 400whp, basicly want a good reliable fun car to drive with good power on tap, what would be the best way to go? I don't like the g54, it is and has been and I think will be unreliable without an updated ignition system, cyl. head without jet valves, some internals, and MPI and more I'm sure. All this seems like alot when I could build a wideblock DOHC which is already proven to be a good workhorse, and would be able to use a DSM ecu, not EMS to run it, and newer/proven technology.

3. This is going to be a slower build, I would like to use some higher end components and the starion runs and drives now (temporarily haha) and I would be able to utilize the car and complete the swap on the side (the car isn't my DD just a toy/project car), budget isn't a huge deal but I am not gonna go crazy, I am looking to build a reliable powerplant right the first time and will not skimp on the must have items.

So I'm sure these questions have been asked thousands of times, so a link or an opinion works, the wiring section of the swap doesn't scare me so much, I deal with wiring enough and know my way around a mulit-meter due to my current job as a BMW tech. So any opinions are welcome. Thanks in advance, oh and btw this site rocks compared to all the other ones I have been searching, lots of good info, and lots of knowledgable members.

[boostaddict]

ok, nevermind I guess, 18 views and not even a link, thanks guys........

[Bill Hincher]

So I'm sure these questions have been asked thousands of times,

yes it has

[JDOliver]

Where do you live? It might be best to find someone to bounce ideas off face to face. That seems to be what you might want. All that you have asked has been addressed, but that happens. I did it myself the other day and have been on the forum for 2 years. The answer was just a few years back.

The engine in the car now is plenty capable, check over at starquestclub.com

[boostaddict]

Where do you live? It might be best to find someone to bounce ideas off face to face. That seems to be what you might want. All that you have asked has been addressed, but that happens. I did it myself the other day and have been on the forum for 2 years. The answer was just a few years back.

The engine in the car now is plenty capable, check over at starquestclub.com

Ya, I just would like more specific info and none of the car groups I participate in deal with or like mitsubishis so I am somewhat limited in technical info besides what I have read, I know I will be able to build and install stuff no prob I just would like some input from people that have done it and know what they are talking about. I am more worried about how to build the motor rather than actually being able to install it. Basicly should I build a high revver or go for torque, which internals to use??? I dunno, and what will the stock trans be able to handle, rpms wise and hp??? I dunno, haha. I live in Colorado very close to Denver, there are alot of DSM shops but most of the ones I have talked to don't know what a wideblock is and some don't even know what a Starion is, haha. Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it. I don't want to use the stock G54, I would rather spend the money it would take to mod that and build a 4G to put in it. I think it will be alot cheaper to build a 4G due to the availabilty of parts on the 4G series (craigslist all day long) vs. finding G54 parts.

[Bill Hincher]

I dont have all the answers but my belief is the start with a 4G64 block and use a 2.0 crank
the 64 block has a taller deck hiegth and you can use a longer rod
then use the first gen head for the bigger ports, find the right turbo and use mega squirt for the injecter curcuit, that ought to put you at about 400hp

[JDOliver]

Are you on DSMTUNERS.com? They have a full section on 4g64 building, then apply the mounting a routing info from here. Theres not much engine building discussion here.

The 4g64 would be better overall if you are going to autocross for the higher torque to get moving from slow speeds. On a track you could keep it in the power curve on a 2.0 and it wouldn't make as much difference.

I would recommend the MegaSquirt also like Bill. Once you learn how it works you can move it from project to project and engine to engine without starting over. I'm using a MS1 I built 6 years ago on a new project this winter.

[boostaddict]

Are you on DSMTUNERS.com? They have a full section on 4g64 building, then apply the mounting a routing info from here. Theres not much engine building discussion here.

The 4g64 would be better overall if you are going to autocross for the higher torque to get moving from slow speeds. On a track you could keep it in the power curve on a 2.0 and it wouldn't make as much difference.

I would recommend the MegaSquirt also like Bill. Once you learn how it works you can move it from project to project and engine to engine without starting over. I'm using a MS1 I built 6 years ago on a new project this winter.

Thanks alot guys, I will check out DSMTUNERS for sure, and I will end up going with some kind of ems but will more then likely start with the oem 4g harness to start. Megasquirt has always appealed to me but I just need to mess with it and do some reading, it seems very versatile and capable. When I want to go for higher numbers then 400hp I will for sure be looking for something, which will probably be pretty quick after its built, haha.

[Arktis]

I would like to add that if you check DSMTuners, to take everything they say with a grain of salt.

[JDOliver]

I should have probably mentioned that also. There' a little B.S. to watch for. 400+ hp 4g engines are not as common as you may be led to believe. Search out the ones with Dyno figures.

[boostaddict]

I know what you mean about the false hp, the butt dyno usually isn't as accurate as a real dyno, haha. I know 400hp is gonna be a task, and I am at high elevation so I don't expect to get there easily. The dsmtuners site is ok but a lot of those guys seem like posers. Anyway I am trying to source a wideblock and I am gonna buy a 1g turbo talon as a donor, hopefully I can find a wrecked one, I don't want to strip a driver. Then I am hoping to have it built and in by next summer. Thx for the input guys.

[Mad Menace]

400whp isnt as hard as you might think... If I had larger injectors I am 100% positive that mine will put out 400+ @ 15-20psi @ 4000rpm
but right now I bust the clutch loose at about 17 psi and top out my 510cc injectors that are at 85psi operating pressure (new flow 697cc @ 85psi). Id really like to get my hands on some 1400-1600cc injectors

Oh and go with MegaSquirt3+MS3X engine management FTW!!! its an amazing piece of equipment.

[boostaddict]

I see your in colorado as well, cool, and if you want some bigger injectors there's a few sets on craigslist denver, 1000cc, cheap.

[boostaddict]

Hey addict where in colorado are you if you don't me asking? I would love to see a nicely built 4g64 if your willing school me a little on what problems you encountered on your build and just have someone to bounce ideas off of. I have yet to actually see a nicely built 4g, usually just some punk kid with exhaust, intake, and a mbc on the verge of throwing a rod, haha.

[Mad Menace]

Unfortunately for me man I recently got laid off... I haven't even been out long enough yet to collect unemployment

Where are you at in Colorado man? I'm right here by the Colorado National Speedway just North of Denver.

I can give you a hand with a good bunch of the project, and I have no life otherwise
Lol, plus I could use a Camera Man to help appease some of the guys on here that wanna see videos of what my 4g64 beast can do.

[Mad Menace]

Hey addict where in colorado are you if you don't me asking? I would love to see a nicely built 4g64 if your willing school me a little on what problems you encountered on your build and just have someone to bounce ideas off of. I have yet to actually see a nicely built 4g, usually just some punk kid with exhaust, intake, and a mbc on the verge of throwing a rod, haha.

Um dude... mines in a Truck, and the way I drive, throwing ANYTHING is possible....lol

Obviously your not doing much of anything right now, and neither am I.
http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1619
I have always liked the Starion/Conquests

[boostaddict]

I'm actually at work today, just waiting for another car to work on, I do most of my research during to day at work on my downtime, when I'm at home my gf gives me crap when I'm on the pc, haha.

[Mad Menace]

How are you ever gonna build a car with a griping GF and a 6-7 day a week job? oh wait... I did it... minus the griping GF thing....lol

Plan on spending a little $$$ if you want 400hp tho man, I've dropped over $5000 under the hood alone, and I should have spent more...lol
Really tho the only things I would change about mine would be adding some 272 cams, 1600cc injectors, and I'll probably get flamed for this but I would have seeked out forged steel pistons over the aluminum ones that contract when they cool, clatter when you start the engine and cause start up smoking till they expand and seal the rings up.

Which BMW dealer do you work for?

[boostaddict]

I know its not going to be cheap but I'm not going to pay any labor besides a dyno tune. I am going to do a lot of craigslist and junkyard shopping too. Sounds like you have a really nice setup. Have you worked with any of the local tuning shops?

[Mad Menace]

Nah, I havent had the chance to get dyno tuned... I am using the seat-o-pant-o-meter and its working alright, but i have heard good things about Finishline Motorsports, Willie B from KBPI recommended them to me at the Rock n Roll Car show up at Bandimere this last summer. and as for any other work, it was all done with my own 2 hands except for having the valve train done, since the head I have had busted valves, so I had SS valves and a 3 step grind done at Greeley Automotive Machine & Racing for about $300... oh and they also did my block Bore, grind, hone and line bore, and machined a set of 1 off pistons for me too.

Well reading thru your thread it sounds like youve decided to go with the 4g64, and Im gonna assume youll need the narrow block to bolt up to your stock tranny... And your doing Junkyard shopping (which around here sucks sometimes DSM's are usually stripped of their motors and ECU's)
But i have good news for you...lol, look no further as I happen to have sitting right here in my living room a perfect 4g64 narrow block that I want sold and gone, and I also have a MS1 sitting here since i upgraded to the MS3 in August... I also have the stock wideblock engine complete sitting in my shed that I pulled from the truck... but I think Im gonna hold on to that for the insurance of having another drop in engine here ready to go, or as a build project to fill the voids in life...lol

[boostaddict]

I actually want to use a wideblock so I can utilize the starion trans. The reasoning for that is just gonna be the ease or not needing to source another trans and get a custom drvieshaft made, not to mention bell housing adapters, mounts, etc... I know the starion trans will handle what I want to do as well. Unfortunately wideblocks are kinda hard to come by but I'm keeping the faith that I will find one soon at the yard. The MS1 is tempting but I gonna wait on that for awhile till I have all my mechnical items.

[Mad Menace]

Your only true hope of finding a wideblock is to find a Mighty Max in the junk yard.
but i can tell you from experience that you can have the whole engine out with only hand tools in under 2 hours... or under an hour with the assistance of air... its only 4 bell housing bolts, 2 starter bolts, 2 shield bolts and 2 motor mount bolts... you literally only need a 10mm, 12mm, and 14mm socket and wrench to get it all.

I seen a few mighty max's at the u pull and pay out off Tower Rd. on Zeno and Colfax a few weeks back, and a v6 model at the u pull and pay up off 66th and Broadway... maybe the one off tower has your treasures... and they got plenty fair prices... you may even be able to find a 1g eclipse and strip the head, attach it to the wideblock and walk out with a complete engine for less than $200 bucks and a days work in the dirt

Edit: broadway shows having 2 max's, colorado springs is showing 2 and i cant seem to find the stock list for off tower rd, but there were 3 there a few weeks ago

ABQ NM is the place to be for mitsu stuff man... geeze they have over 4 pages of stocked mitsu stuff and like 4 max's

[boostaddict]

Ya that's what I'm looking for, I have a really nice cordless snap-on impact that makes quick work possible at the yard, my only problem right now is I am buying a house and its consuming all my time. I am going to have to wait till mid november to really hit the part hunting hard, but I will have a new 2 car garage at my disposal then, woohoo! I can't wait, I getting pretty impatient.

[Mad Menace]

That happens to the best of us... but the first time you hear it purr, it was worth it.... then the first time the turbo kicks 15psi and the vehicle drops sideways... it becomes instantly addictive, and more so worth it

[boostaddict]

Ya no doubt, I love reaping the benefits of a good build, I have along ways to go unfortunately....

[boostaddict]

I am actually in Littleton for the time being but soon to be moving over by the Cherry Creek reservoir to my new house with GARAGE, haha. I would definitely be able to do some camera man work for sure, I would love to see your truck and its crazy looking paint job, haha. I browsed through your build thread, I need to sit down and read it for the knowledge of it, looks like MS was a pain to start but looks like you have it figured out now. Build looks good too, I bet that truck is pretty quick. Did you run it this year at test and tune?

[Mad Menace]

No I never made it up to test and tune this year due to stupid problems involving just everything, but I will make it there next year to see if I can catch the 10.99 black flag ET... unless something bad happens between now and then.

The MS was initially a problem of its own, but now after over a year of experience with it I feel confident in that I know how to setup and tune one now, I am actually betting I could set one up on a DSM rather quickly now. and id never go back, since i have seen the amazing difference between gasoline and e85 and having the option to tune fr both and switch between the two at will... e85 is where the power is, gasoline is where the economy is... i get about 13 MPG on e85 and about 20+ on gasoline, only presuming i keep my foot out of it

Yeah go ahead man... rub the garage in...lol I did my swap in a snowed in Carport in February, but nothing beats a heated garage.

Your really not all that far out from me man... maybe 40 miles if you live on the far side of littleton, like I said Im just up off highway 52 in Dacono, just north of Colorado National Speedway out here in the country somewhat.

P.s. I did that paint job... Airbrushing is 1 hobby of mine. Let me know if you want something laid up on that Starion

[boostaddict]

Your making the MS system sound pretty nice, I am going to have to do some more reading on it, I know it looks alot cleaner then a factory harness if done right. As far as paint I am gonna need a body shop to give my starion a little love, its really not that bad but I think $1000 would make it almost perfect. So you did that whole swap in a carport? Man thats dedication, I work in a shop with a lift and I am spoiled, haha, I am not looking forward to not having a lift but at least I have preofessional grade tools to work with. I am going to the junkyard today to see if I can find anything I need, hopefully a wideblock......... Which would be nice because the yard only wants $50 for 4 cyl. blocks and they have cars coming in and out of there daily. So off to the yard. Actually nevermind, its sunday there closed, haha. So are you running stock internals in your build???

[Mad Menace]

The yards open.... I was there last sunday morning....lol
Ha haha, yeah i did it all in a carport, the pictures tell the story, I painted it in the carport, airbrushed it in the carport (never got to clear coating it and last winter KILLED it) I have pro tools and all as I havent worked in a shop in a while they are all here (all over the place now) but really it wasnt that bad aside from the cold.

as far as the internals go HA! no i am running the stock rods and crank cause the I-beams woulnd't clear the bore with the 4g64 crank, and I really didnt want to go with the 4g63 crank cause I wanted the torque (which was an awesome choice in my opinion) but I have a set of 1 off 9.1:1 billet aluminum pistons (should have gotten forged steel instead) ACL race bearings populate the entire engine, eliminated the balance shafts (I think it was a mistake myself as it tries to rattle EVERYTHING apart now) and I have Stainless steel valves and 260 cams (want 272s badly) and I have 510cc EVOIII injectors I got from Rob (Egoinstigator) dual walbro 255l's a t3/t4 a/r .50 turbo (since the 18g lost oil pressure one day when the oil line got blown off the top) and the baddest MS3+MS3X standalone engine management computer on the market running it all.

[boostaddict]

The yards open.... I was there last sunday morning....lol
Ha haha, yeah i did it all in a carport, the pictures tell the story, I painted it in the carport, airbrushed it in the carport (never got to clear coating it and last winter KILLED it) I have pro tools and all as I havent worked in a shop in a while they are all here (all over the place now) but really it wasnt that bad aside from the cold.

as far as the internals go HA! no i am running the stock rods and crank cause the I-beams woulnd't clear the bore with the 4g64 crank, and I really didnt want to go with the 4g63 crank cause I wanted the torque (which was an awesome choice in my opinion) but I have a set of 1 off 9.1:1 billet aluminum pistons (should have gotten forged steel instead) ACL race bearings populate the entire engine, eliminated the balance shafts (I think it was a mistake myself as it tries to rattle EVERYTHING apart now) and I have Stainless steel valves and 260 cams (want 272s badly) and I have 510cc EVOIII injectors I got from Rob (Egoinstigator) dual walbro 255l's a t3/t4 a/r .50 turbo (since the 18g lost oil pressure one day when the oil line got blown off the top) and the baddest MS3+MS3X standalone engine management computer on the market running it all.

That sounds pretty awesome, I bet those pistons were a chunk of change, haha. So the stock internals on the 4g64 can handle some punishment it seems minus the pistons, but I know alot of that has to do with tune as well. So why are you running dual 255 walbros? Seems like alot of fuel, what do you have your fuel pressure at, you must be pushing a ton of boost to need those. Damn I really want to see your truck, sounds like a really legit setup. And your running a wideblock mated to your auto trans?? Sorry I haven't been able to read your full build thread yet. I still don't see the benefit of the balance shaft removal yet, I haven't read to in depth about it yet but I think I remember it having to do with eliminating parts in the oil pump drive system to make it simpler and less moving parts to fail, I think... haha. And my main concern with the MS system is how good are the instructions for using it, seems like alot of people need to contact them to get it figured out, I am thinking about just going straight to that now because I don't know if I wanna mess with a stock used wiring harness, its still up in the air in my mind at this point.

[Mad Menace]

DUDE, MS is so easy to build up its not funny and right now only the MS3 is lacking in documentation as its still in BETA , you can even reuse your factory harness if need be or build your own or use a premade one with labled wires and stuff like I did, then all you gotta do is cut to length and terminate, but I am not gonna lie, I was not concerned with pretty as much as functional so mine looks like a gremlin went thru and rewired the whole truck... which did happen and Im the gremlin...lol I have wires EVERYWHERE at the moment, but its still a project in the making IMO so... but if you go MS I can help you with all the BS i went thru and make your install a lot cleaner and smoother than mine was (I wish someone made me that offer when I started...lol)
I have dual 255l's for boost yes, static pressure is 85-90 psi and it raises to over 110 at 1500rpm (megasquirt controls when they come on) for the volume more so than the pressure (NEED BIGGER INJECTORS) and it raises yet again 1.1 psi for every 1psi boost created (boost ref FPR) I can run clear up over 20 psi, but the clutch itself cant handle more than about 17 (need stage 3+ or higher clutch) more comes in quicker on e85 vs gasoline i.e gasoline at 4000 rpm maybe 15 psi, e85 at 4000 rpm 20+ psi.
Oh and no not auto trans, 5 speed manual that shifts like hot shit on welfare check day...lol
Id like a 6 speed out of a mazda rx-8... MS even makes a MegaShift transmission controller for ECU controlled auto trasn too tho so anythings an option... especially with Bill around

[Arktis]

On the subject of 400hp, it's fairly easy if you want to do it dirty.

280 cams, 1000cc injectors, Walbro 255 pump, Aeromotive FPR, Evo III 16G, E85, a damn fine tune, and run wastegate spring pressure (We'll go with "about" 31psi)

*edit*

Oh, and a front mount.

[lsr mike]

Actually 880 injectors and about 20 lbs at 10:1 will do it, with the rest of that stuff. don't forget to amp up the tranny and Clutch to hold the power

[Mad Menace]

On the subject of 400hp, it's fairly easy if you want to do it dirty.

280 cams, 1000cc injectors, Walbro 255 pump, Aeromotive FPR, Evo III 16G, E85, a damn fine tune, and run wastegate spring pressure (We'll go with "about" 31psi)

*edit*

Oh, and a front mount.

Lol... Living embodiment here, but 260 cams 750cc injectors and 20 psi will probably do it... lol
but how is that dirty? you could easily add another 150 "dirty" horsepower with a good shot of Nitrous and some fuel enrichment...lol

how'd he put that? oh yeah
"Winning is winning, weather it's by an inch or a mile"
or like I like to say a lot,
"The guy with the most money spent, doesn't necessarily have the best setup, or know how to use it"

[Arktis]

The setup I posted is pretty cheap for what it's doing.

I guess my idea of dirty is cleaner than most. :/

[boostaddict]

So I have been doing some more reading and don't think MS is going to be for me until after I get to know the 4g better with some hands on experience with the motor I am building. So I have decided that when I swap my 4g64 wideblock in my Starion that I just want to run a 1g dsm harness with 1g dsm ecu. So what I am wondering is what can this ecu support as far as mods, will I beable to utilize this ecu to reach 400ish hp? Obviously with the supporting fuel, exhaust, intake, mods as well.... MS seems above my head right now, I still have alot to learn about the 4g series and what I am trying to build, so I think that it will be easier to set up MS after I have learned all the mechanical engineering behind the sirius series and how it all is suppose to work. Which I am getting very excited to start my build, theres sooo much aftermarket support and tons of tech articles, not to mention you can almost completely build one from the junkyard.

[Mad Menace]

not to mention you can almost completely build one from the junkyard.

Try completely... Hell mine just blew up the other day and I didn't even have to go to the junkyard, but now we'll see first hand what the factory intenals really can take since I just slapped the dohc head on the old block with new bearings and piston rings and a head gasket...
Can't answer the evu question but I can tell you that MS seems hard at first but is a lot easier than you think... And there's 1500 hp plus engines ran by megasquirt