Hey everybody, been doing some reasearch on this site for quite awhile now so I thought I'd join. I realize this is a site based on people swapping 4g's in to rwd layout's, but I'm going for something different.
I've owned many DSM's in my time so I'm quite familiar with the 4g63, my most current vehicle being a '97 Talon with a 360whp 7-bolt 4G63T. Only problem is, I keep eating transmissions...
Alas, it might be my shifting, but I'd like to think it isn't. My trannies usually have a welded center diff which can be cumbersome on daily drivers (or perhaps in this case, cause premature failure). I've gone through the stock transmission, and two used ones... My options are spend $2,000 for a tranny from John Shepherd, which wouldn't be all that bad, or keep throwing used ones in. The hidden option I decided to go with might not be the cheapeast but it'll ensure I have a unique and VERY fun DSM to play with. RWD in the Talon
I'm going to take the front cradle from an FC3S RX-7 to reposition the steering rack to the front of the control arms (instead of hidden under the subframe against the firewall), and modify it to fit the front clip of my 2G Talon. Now I know what you're thinking, "why get rid of the more advanced suspension setup in favour of the old MacPherson strut style?"
Well, for ease of install and calculated losses... I've measured everything out and the FC RX7 cradle, with minor modifcations, will feat very neatly under the front clip. Then I can remove or alter the rear subframe to fit the W58 Supra transmission I will be using (with one of Bill's custom bellhousings). The steering angle is TERRIBLE from factory on the 2G's so I'm hoping with some modifications the FC cradle and suspension (WITH the Turbo II brakes), willl allow for a little more turn in and driveability. especially if I'm looking to drift it, which I might be. Some Microtech Standalone, custom motor/tranny mounts, driveshaft, and Mk. III Supra Rear diff with custom axles, giant Borg Warner turbo, and some fabrication/welding later, I should hopefully have a 500rwhp Talon that will never leave me without a smile on my face! Good news too! I just picked up the rebuilt narrowblock 6-Bolt that will be going in it! Unfortunately it's been sitting awhile so I've torn her down the the short block to check it all out (*update* she's mint!), removed the balance shafts, and am currently working on modifying the head to accept the thermostat housing off the 35mm frost plug on the front of the head. Then it's time for some ARP Headstuds and a Metal Headgasket! Here are some starting photos to kick off the beginning of this build. Any suggestions or advice would be much appreciated! I need some ideas for intake plenum sizing! I'll have picks of the shell it's going in soon...
Some pictures of the 6-Bolt before I disassembled it.
The front cover off to do the balance shaft elimination.
The new(ish) head with aftermarket valve springs, new hydraulic lifters/roller rockers, 3-way valve grind and ported intake and exhaust ports. I popped out the front plug for the custom thermostat housing.
Dang dude! Looks like a fun setup! If you are shooting for 500 hp, you might consider the R154 tranny instead of the W58. I have the W58 running a 16g in my truck. Its one of the smoothest shifting transmissions I've experienced. But, I've heard they are only good up to around 400 hp. But if you know how to preload your driveline and aren't too stupid with it, I would think it would survive just fine.
Last edited by boise-nic on Mon May 03, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i dunno if i had to do it again i would def go with a w58. mt r154 shifts like a peterbuilt. my buddy had a sc300 making 580whp with the w58 no problem for a few years. i think in a lighter car it will be perfect in the 500 whp range.
also if your hoing to do a custom IRS setup i would go with a ford 8.8 IRS. tons of aftermarket support and its strong and everywhere. you can get it out of a 90's t bird or cougar or a 03 cobra
88 conquest 4g63 now sporting a crankwalked boat anchor
^Yeah I've got no complaints about the w58. Glad to know it can hold more power. I don't plan on getting there but its nice to know there is a margin of safety.
Yeah, I've had a bit of experience with both transmissions. I like the R-154 because it feels strong. Defintely very notchy but that just adds to the effect haha. The W58 definitely shifts nicer and at work we've got a Mk. III Supra making 700hp at the wheels with the W58 with no problems... yet... It just requires more finesse than the R-154. Thanks for the idea about the Ford IRS screemineagle. I've been researching a lot of rear-end setups but that one eluded me. I'll definitely have to look into because that ould handle the power no problem! Got the thermostat block off done as well as mocked up a pipe for the repoistioned thermostat housing through the timing cover. I just need to machine the holes in the back of the head for the coolant flow and then I can throw it on. I also started fabbing up an Intake. Chopped the factory plenum off the runners so I can weld an Aluminum tube on it. Any ideas on sizing? I was thinking 5" but I can't find any good calculations for volume/flow. Blocks been freshly painted black too. Now I just need the lime-green powdercoated Valve Cover. My Stainless Steel T3 tubular manifold is bolted on too. Might cut the flange off and flip upside-down to make the manifold top mount. Although I haven't decided if I want to create a hood scoop for the turbo that may or may not be sticking out of the hood haha. More pics up soon, just need to recharge that batteries in my camera.
Wow... I'd love to know how he did that... Any idea how to get a hold of him? I'd love to know what he did with the steering rack to make it fit. Especially if he repositioned it in front of the motor... Custom knuckles? If you have any info on how to get a hold of him please let me know... I'll do some research on the web. If I can't find him, oh well, at least I have the FC front end still. But it would definitely be alot less difficult to re-use the factory suspension I would imagine...
I'd also like to see what he did for the front end. There doesn't seem to be any room for a RWD transmission in the DSM chassis. Moving the steering away from the firewall may be the first step, but it's a tight area.
Also, why go with a new rear subframe? The DSM unit seems to hold up well in many high HP cars. Yeah, it's only holding 50% of the power, but they seem pretty strong.
Perhaps your first step is to just get the whole DSM front area clear and mock up that RWD engine and tranny to see where you're at. Worse case scenario is that you can't make it RWD without lots of cutting and you can slap it back together and find another platform. Best case scenario is you can find all of your clearance areas and decide what the next step is. Don't go and buy a bunch of parts that may not work. You may not need that FC front suspension, but you won't know until you get the old crap out and measure.
Also, there are other tranny shops besides Shepherd's. Try TRE or Jack's Transmissions. Jack's is a lot cheaper and just as high quality. He'll also buy those broken trannies if they have useable parts.
Do it in a Datsun!
1972 Datsun 510
7-bolt 4G63T, EVO 9 pistons and rods, Garrett GT3076R, "flipped" stock intake, Toyota R154, Z31 R200 w/ CVs
I agree with the going step by step part. I've accepted that what I'm doing isn't very common, so I understand where you're coming from. As for the rear suspension/diff. My plan was to get it all completed with whatever diff I use right off the bat. That way I'm not stuck getting two custom driveshafts. I'll most likely be tackling the rear subframe this winter anyways so it'll give me plenty of time to do it right. If it weren't for having to make a custom driveshaft, I would totally start with the factory LSD, but I do know that they aren't all that strong as compared to the 1G's or an 8.8 or something. And when run with 100% of the power (which they obviously weren't designed for) they have a serious tendency to explode. I've seen this a few times when people think they can just pop the front axles out and run insane power through an AWD transmission and transfer case. Thats not to say it wouldn't last a little while, it's just that it just about quadruples the risk factor in doing so. I'd rather hit the nail on the head the first time. I've come to terms that this might not be an easy swap, but I'm not giving up on it because of that. The transmission tunnel will be interesting and might even have to be custom, but I have access to the kind of equipment and materials to make it happen and not be jerry-rigged so I'm not too overly worried about it. Thanks for all of the advice though you guys, it's definitely being taken into consideration. I will miss some aspects of AWD but the draw for RWD is just too strong for me right now. Pluis, Evo 9's are getting cheaper and cheaper, and I might just buy one of those as a daily when the opportunity arises...
Quick update on the swap, I've started fabbing up the intake manifold using 4" Alumnimum piping. the timing cover and cam gears are painted and ready to go, and I've welded support braces on the tubular manifold so I can cut the flange off and flip over to make it a top mount. Headgasket and Studs should be ordered next weekend, as well as a bellhousing hopefully. Then I can start the long process of figuring out how to get everything in and working in the engine bay! Check out the pics below. Fully assembled engine pics are not that far off! (and no the intake isn't going to be that long, just in rough stages right now)
Hey everyone, sorry for the lack of info on the project as of late, I've been really busy. I've made a few changes to the design in the previous months. I don't have any up to date pictures as of yet but I'll hopefully be uploading some tomorrow.
I've ditched the rear-end swap idea in favor of an easier less expensive route. I'm going to be keep the factory rear end, but with a Frontline Fabrications 1/4" steel, girdled rear diff cover for the 2G's. The guy I was talking to there said their cover has seen 900awhp Mitsu's and DSM's with no issues as of yet. But he's currently working on a rear diff cover that will allow the 3000GT rear end to bolt into the 2G's, so with any luck that design will be perfect by the time I'm ready to tackle the rear end. Other than that, I'm just going to upgrade to chromoly 300mm axle shafts and see how it goes.
I pressed the pulley and eheel out of the factory waterpump, which surprisingly left a perfect rad hose size bore into the water pump, so I welded the factory outlet closed and welded a section of cast aluminum piping with a rib on the end to where the pulley was. This is going to be the return to my eclectric waterpump set up. And it eliminates another pulley from the front of my engine.
The tublular manifold has been hacked off at the flange, flipped over, and welded and fits awesome. I've finally decided on a turbo too. It's off a 5.9 Cummins deisel (HX35W) and has had a 9cm rear housing swapped onto it, but I'm going to lose that to a Borg Warner 7cm rear housing. It fits very nicely on the manifold.
The intake manifold is just about complete. I've taken a 2JZ throttle body and cut off the traction control throttle plate section and welded a ribbed piece of aluminum piping onto it and thats what I be using from throttle control.
Other than that I've drilled the holes in the head, prepped the bottom-end for the ARP rod bolts that will be going in shortly, and I've started fabricating an air-seperator for the cooling system. And it lookes like the swapped knuckles (side to side) is definitely going to work to my advantage, depending on how I mount the steering rack, I might even be able to squeeze a little more steering angle out of it too without any bumpsteer
Thats the progress so far, I'll do my best to upload some pictures tomorrow!
Alright guys, here are those photos I promised you a couple of days ago. Underneath are picks of the waterpump, intake, exhaust manifold and throttle body. Looking forward to making some progress on this thing in the next week.
Whered you find that exhaust manifold? Ive wanted an inverted one since the start but cant seem to locate one
Actually it started out as a factory-style bottom mount tubular manifold, but I cut the head flange off at the end of the runners, flipped it 180 degrees and had it re-welded by one of the guys at my shop. I added the supports in between the runners to give it some strength before I cut it.
any more info on the electric water pump? Where did you buy the motor from? How does it bolt up to the housing/block? Is it a single speed or can you hook it up to the coolant temperature and have it circulate more/less depending on conditions. I'd probably want to run it at max all the time, but I would think for reliability's sake you would want to have less water circulation on the freeway and such when the engine isn't getting hotter than the radiator is cooling the coolant. if that makes any sense.
any more info on the electric water pump? Where did you buy the motor from? How does it bolt up to the housing/block? Is it a single speed or can you hook it up to the coolant temperature and have it circulate more/less depending on conditions. I'd probably want to run it at max all the time, but I would think for reliability's sake you would want to have less water circulation on the freeway and such when the engine isn't getting hotter than the radiator is cooling the coolant. if that makes any sense.
This is the pump I will be using. It's remote unit it so you can mount it anywhere in your engine bay. There is a company that makes a variable speed module for electric waterpumps but I can't remeber the name of it. The way mine will be set up is that the electric waterpump will be triggered by a adjustable coolant temperature switch. That way it will turn on at a linear rate as the resistance in the temp sensor changes
Build looks good so far, but I only had one concern (may not turn up, but something to think about). I dont know how much power you are looking to lay down, but if the rear end has seen 900awhp, its only getting about 450 horses back there. With your intake manifold set up, I'd say your shooting for a "little" bit more than that. I dont know if you factored that in or not, and if so, please comPLETELY ignore my post...
Also, if you end up running with the auto trans, you may have a little more luck getting the rear end to hold together for what are obvious reasons
Again, the build looks great man! Keep the updates coming!
Yeah the rear end is still up in the air. I'm really hoping the 3000GT - 2G diff cover has been completed by the time I come around to doing it, but who knows, maybe the girdled 2g cover will hold up fine. I'm hoping to shoot for 450 to the wheels anyways with the capability of 550 so I'm most likely leaning towards the 3000GT cover, but we'll see what happens when the time comes.
I've thought about running an auto tranny but my heart is set on a manual. Thanks again everyone for the support. This isn't exactly an easy swap by any means but I've been having fun with it so far. I'm hoping to start prepping the chassis within the next 2 weeks. I have yet to rip the 7-bolt out of it so thats first on the list!
Hey guys, here's that girdled diff cover I was talking about. This is a direct replacement for the diff cover on the 95-99 2g's. They're still working on the 3000GT conversion cover but if it isn't complete by the time I'm ready for it, at least this one looks beefy enough to last a little while...
Here's Frontline Fabrication's website for those who might be interested...
Looks good man! Out of curiosity, what are the 3kgt rear ends good for (on an awd set up)? It seems like if you were going to spend the money on those parts, eventually it may just be worth it to get the ford 8.8 rear end...plenty of aftermarket support, and plenty of those rear's available at the yards.
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