Mad Menace's Mighty Max, 11/8/2010 Take 2: Stock short block

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:21 pm

we cant download that picture you posted without a msextra account or whatever.

anyways, I don't think you fully understand what DSMLINK (ECMLINK now) is. Its worthwhile to explain so that you understand why it is superior to MS for our applications. EPROM stands for erasable programable read only memory. It would appear that from 1990 to 1995 about half of the DSM's produced had the code dictating the tune of the car and all else located on one solid eprom chip. These chips can be removed via desoildering, and then a new chip can be put in its place. ECMLINK is basically a chip and daughterboard which allows you to plug directly into the OBD port (OBD I or OBD II) and use their software to program the chip located on their daughterboard.

The reason why this is so good is because it uses the factory processor, inputs, and everything else located in the factory ecu and wiring harness, and is mostly only a software change. Since the factory ECU is really kick ass, this works really well. It is designed specifically to run these engines and can be modified to run any engine (I've personally seen someone running a DSM ecu and wiring harness with DSMLINK on a rotary rx7). Most standalone ECU companies give you the bare minimum and make you buy supporting stuff as you need it to keep their costs down. AEM EMS doesn't do this, but most others do, such as MS.

So DSMLINK isn't a standalone ecu of any type, its software designed to harness the full potencial of the factory ecu.

In my honest opinion, the reason why it took you so long to get your car running is because you made the mistake of saying things like "I'm optimisitic" and "this will be easy" and "2-3 days"

the 4g6x family of engines can hear these things and doesn't like when you make plans for it. It runs when it feels like it.

Rule number 1: never curse at your DSM
Rule number 2: never assume it will do you any favors

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:24 pm

this engine would have never wired up to othe original factory computer... i didnt use any method of the original CAS on the back of the head I used ford VR sensors and VR wheel. lets see DSMlink do that

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:34 pm

dsmlink would have worked with your original 2g cam angle sensor and crank angle sensor, so you wouldn't have had to get the 36-1 or the vrsensor. Plus Im sure they could do it. My buddy hooked the factory fuel pressure regulator up to his wastegate and controlled it with the factory ecu to regulate boost pressure like an electronic boost control solinoid. People have designed software to allow you to use the clutch, gas, and brake pedal to make a password to lock and unlock your car. Each time you try and start it you have to enter the password (gas brake clutch clutch gas gas or whatever your heart desires) and then the car will start. The possibilities with dsmlink are litterally endless. How do you think we have such huge maps where MS has 12 x 12 maps. DSMLINK can run speed density, adjust your fuel maps based on a wideband o2 sensor input, and can run antilag programs where the timing advance goes into the exhaust overlap to cause your turbo to spool quicker.

Don't knock something you haven't seen yet. Plus since its all software they are coming out with updates as people request new things and they develop those aspects into the software. Also since they have a very focused consumer base we get what we ask for. Try contacting someone who designs the software for MS and asking them to add something for your specific car. Let me know how it works out.

Also, your factory ECU isn't the one we are talking about. The non turbo SOHC engines had different ECU's than the turbo DOHC engines.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:37 pm

i didnt want to destroy my firewall just for a cas... im not knowcking it, im telling you what worked for MY application and what wouldnt have.... thats all

and all that cool update stuff goes for megasquirt too... something tells me you havent tried megasquirt

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:48 pm

If I read your earlier posts correctly, you were trying to use the 2g crank angle sensor and cam angle sensor, neither of which require you to use the 1g cas and thus dent your firewall.

I'm just telling you a more reliable way of running these engines. Since all of the megasquirt car's I've ever delt with never impressed. MS is kinda like a safc. You can get the car running and maybe you won't notice the difference when driving it, but with a properly tuned stand alone or DSMLINK car and similar mods, the curve will be much nicer and the power will come on earlier without sacrificing as much top end. Hell just going from DSMLINK verson 2 to DSMLINK version 3 gave some people close to 80 hp at lower rpms due to the heavily increased resolution down there in version 3. I wasn't the biggest fan of DSMLINK until version 3 for that very reason. Whenever you lack resolution it will hurt drivability. Peak power is somewhat useless without low end torque and drivability.

boise-nic · Post by **boise-nic** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:39 am

Well congrats on finding some power lol! Yeah you never forget your first time

How's the tires holding up?

About the dsmlink...

That is what I am going with for the following reasons:

1) V3 lite is only about $350 so it is priced competiticly
2) I can run full SD and get rid off all MAF/MASS sensors for good
3) Works with the stock harness, ECU, sensors.

I'm by no means trying to promote the product but it was the safest route for me since I do NOT in any way, shape, or form know how to tune. There are 3 evo's running around my town each pushing 600+ hp running AEM and DSMlink...they will be tuning my truck.

But in short, it sounds like you are finally getting some much needed satisfaction out of the truck. Enjoy!

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:51 pm

The tires are holding up fine right now... I havent gotten out and spun the crap out of them yet, tho i will say i left a good 100ft strip the day i found the power but then promptly over heated, then a day later it snapped the front crank bolt and about tossed the timing belt... 2 days after that it snapped another crank bolt off the front and DID toss the timing belt... it all happens to have happened while i was under no load, coasting with the clutch in thus saving me the horror of a blown engine, I got it running again yesterday and rechecked all of the main parameters, compression, timing ect...
and now I am currently awaiting the 24 hour period for the loctite to harden... only 2 hours left to wait as of right now.

Previous to this project the closest thing to tuning I had ever done was a tune up or tossing on a newer bigger carb, and I have learned things that i thought i KNEW and things i never thought possible... Megasquirt is a great learning experience if nothing else... and it IS very capable of producing plenty of power, as I am a witness to.

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 7:56 pm

I'm still wondering what switch you flipped to suddenly drastically improve the performance of your car. Is there a 2 stroke/4 stroke switch or something? That was the point of me mentioning the picture didn't work.

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:29 pm

FANTASTIC! I can't wait for the videos. I am wondering what change you made that fixed the power issue though?

I know you are happy to know it does put some smack down.

JDOliver · Post by **JDOliver** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 9:33 am

TsTKI, I am not sure you understand the principle or use of Megasquirt. 12x12 maps are old base megasquirt numbers. Very few people even use those anymore.

It is entirely stand alone, similar to AEM, but $1,000 less. When I implemented the original MS1 the ECU kit cost $120, the relay box $65, and the cable linking them $75. DSM link is great for people who want to keep all the factory ECU and wiring and have inspections. It is very good but still a bit higher than MS. MS will adjust your A/Fr, will do Speed Density, is able to do most anything you ask of it, for less.

The use of MS takes research, implementation, and development by the user. Many people fail to understand the interaction of all the aspects and get frustrated for that reason. They should stay with the "bolt on" solutions.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:32 pm

I changed the Dual table setting from dual to single and BAM the truck came to life... literally immediately... I actually said "did you hear that?" the second i hit "burn" the power was there.

The MS definitely takes a good amount of research and whatnot to get up and running, but in my mind its totally worth it in the end if you get it up and running.... and if you get it running but badly, dont give up... youll get it some day and when you do... damn

I already tore out the new clutch... Pressure plate anyway so I have to add the Exedy stage 3 clutch I just purchased to my price list... $375 in replacement of the $130 Luk clutch thats coming back out this weekend... only 3000 miles on it.

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 6:45 pm

I be damned. I know the one I sent you should not have had Dual atbles on... of course, something was lost or skewed in translation if I remember right...

Great to hear you got her cranking it out though.

...And for the Virgins to Megasquirt, It is like a big learning experience, and I am very satisfied with what I picked up from it... not to mention how well it works.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:18 am

This thing is gonna get me in trouble... I looked down the other day on the highway and I was cruising at over 115mph and I wasn't even trying, I was just cruising...

Something tells me too that these 510cc injectors are now a bit too small where they were good before, but for now I think ill just crank up the fuel pressure to compensate

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 10:59 pm

Yea.. I had to either turn up my FP or get bigger injectors. I got the bigger injectors...

I am sure yours will make more power, but the 510's will still be enough to get you in trouble.

You gotta get a video of a few times through the gears.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 7:04 am

what are you running? 750's?
thats almost 50% more fuel than Im running right now at stock pressure, plus Im putting down the E85 and other than economy sucks I like it, its got more power and seems to like it better than our measly 91 octane (its 85, 87 and 91 here)

Ill see if I can get a good video after work today... it would be kinda hard to do now before work in the dark.

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:11 pm

I got a set of flow matched 650's off ebay from a company that does a lot of tuner stuff... was dumping some stock and I almost stole them. I totally sniped the bid war that was going on. hehehe.

I am still running in near 75% duty on the injectors...

boise-nic · Post by **boise-nic** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:20 pm

Mad Menace wrote:This thing is gonna get me in trouble... I looked down the other day on the highway and I was cruising at over 115mph and I wasn't even trying, I was just cruising...

It might go like something other than a truck...but it still stops like a truck! A fact I learned once or twice.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:47 pm

boise-nic wrote:
Mad Menace wrote:This thing is gonna get me in trouble... I looked down the other day on the highway and I was cruising at over 115mph and I wasn't even trying, I was just cruising...

It might go like something other than a truck...but it still stops like a truck! A fact I learned once or twice.

Boy you aint kidding... lol ... and its worse when you blow the vacuum line off the brake booster... new brakes are already in the plan once i fall back into some cash

I think the few of us driving these badass trucks need to get some brain cells together and come up with a cost effective brake upgrade for these things... hell even ABS wouldn't be a bad thing... as long as its got electric pumps... hydroboost pumps can really rob power.

shroder15 · Post by **shroder15** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:44 am

Has the 3kgt brake upgrade been looked into for the calipers? Either that, or compared to the size of the montero of similar years? If the monteros are larger, it may be worth a shot

Verdad · Post by **Verdad** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 5:01 am

this is my planned route.
http://tunersnation.com/ZenCart/index.p ... ln80388gp2

the guy (garfield) is a pretty well respected GVR4 guy locally. Ill let you know if they work.... in like 5 months when i get my piece of shit running

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:28 pm

http://www.streetbeatcustoms.com/Royalt ... nt/781576/ Add in a set of these and your ready to stop... what about the rear end?
swap rears for one with factory disc brakes from a ford exploder? I really dont want 5 lug rears and 6 lug fronts tho.

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:37 am

Mad.. How is it that "Hydro-Boosts" can rob power? They run off the power steering.?

Just curious because I've not read that in the mag wright-ups..
E

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 1:01 pm

if its run by a belt and spinning some kind of pump it robs power

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Fri Jul 09, 2010 12:02 am

Melted the inner core of my turbo feed line... no idea how it happened, nothing had changed....
Anyway I believe it took my turbo with it too, there is now more shaft play that i have ever seen in ANY turbo EVER... Ill have tear it down and see if its worth rebuilding or not... if its not ill buy a $150 replacement off ebay for the time being as I am out of money right now...

This sucks i have had nothing but problem after problem...
on the good side tho, when its running right, it f***ing runs!

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:49 am

just want to make sure you are running a check valve in between your brake booster and your intake manifold, right? The mighty max might have not come with one because its an N/A but you definately need one if your running a turbo car. When your under boost the turbo will essencially be giving you reverse power brakes.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:56 am

uhhh... nope not to my knowledge... i think its just a hose from the intake to the booster... and I have busted it once so far since i built this... what does this have to do with me melting down the turbo? I dont think they relate any...

Where can i find me one of them "check valves"?

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:52 pm

has nothing to do with melting your turbo unless the huge vaccume leak which resulted from blowing your brake booster hose off caused it. I'm just saying when you do get the car running again, its MUCH safer to have that check valve in place. although come to think of it I think even non turbo cars should have it since you still have power brakes with the engine off. Try turning your car on, then off, then waiting a few minutes and press the brake a couple times. If its easy the first time and then harder and harder each time then you have a check valve, and if its just hard from the get go you don't. I thought the check valve for the conquest was inline from the intake manifold to the brake booster, but it could be internal.

if you do rebuild the turbo you have to have it high speed balanced, which is more than the 150 your mentioning to buy a new turbo. They sell rebuild kits on ebay, but without balancing you'll just blow it again and again and again. turbos spin up to 150,000 rpms...

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:27 pm

I guess there may be an internal check valve but theres no power brakes at all when the truck is off... a lesson i have learned several times while being towed... and its ALWAYS been that way... in fact i am using the factory vacuum line from the booster to the manifold same as its always been...
and the difference in time from now to WAY back when i blew the booster line off ( i think it pulled off in a bad launch ) has been several months now so i doubt they are connected in any way shape or form.

this turbo is beyond rebuilding... i would need both wheels, a shaft, center cartridge and the rebuild kit... to hell with that... cheapy ebay turbo for now, already on the way (all i can afford)

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:02 am

well from the factory the check valve wouldn't be needed as much as the car was not turbocharged. What I'm saying is, your idling, vacuum builds up in the booster so you have power brakes, then you hit the gas, build some boost, something jumps out in front of you, and now the vacuum has turned into boost and instead of having power brakes you have to push the hydralic lines and the boost built up in the brake booster. the check valve stops boost from going into the brake booster, which would never happen on a non turbo car. Modern cars all have this check valve, turbo or not, and the braking while the engine is off is simply a test to see if you have that valve. Its pretty important, and I highly suggest you get one of these cheap easy to install valves.

thats all I've been trying to say this whole time. Brakes are 1000 times more important than anything else. brakes save lives.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:16 am

Um ok.... (secretly still not convinced there isnt one internally)
the truck stops fine dude, like it ALWAYS did nothing has changed except the amount of HP

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:04 am

Oh boy... its been a minute since I visited and updated... I upgraded my map sensor and got myself up to 20 psi boost.... woah thats some fun schizznitt... then the proverbial "crap hit the fan"
I blew the tanks off the radiator a few weeks back and replaced that with a 26" dual pass aluminum race radiator from Griffin, then randomly the coil pack blew up like a balloon and shorted out in the heat one afternoon leaving me on the side of the road, and took out the megasquirts coil drivers with it... then this week the injector driver goes out while driving 45mph... and to kick me while im down I have found water in the oil on 2-3 seperate occasions recently... so I did it, I bought a head gasket and a MS3 pcb v3.0 with MS3X expansion card, electronic boost controller and I plan for a few other things in the future too, like cams and gears, Meth/water injection, LSD, 2" drop kit in front, 3" drop in rear, and I sure would love to upgrade this "transmission" if thats what you can call it.

boise-nic · Post by **boise-nic** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:30 pm

^We can rebuild him...make him stronger...faster...better!

Good to hear that its going good. I've been away from mine for more than a month! Arg...I miss boost.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:42 pm

boise-nic wrote:^We can rebuild him...make him stronger...faster...better!

Good to hear that its going good. I've been away from mine for more than a month! Arg...I miss boost.

Yeah I feel ya, I haven't gotten to drive mine in almost a month now too.
Received a bad MS3 that burnt up instantly so I was forced to wait for another shipment to receive a warranty return, didnt want to even mess with the old MS1 at that point.
Now I got my new one I just gotta get it installed and tuned up

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 12:04 pm

Up and running on MS3 first time I turned the key!!! man this thing is awesome... especially compared to its older counterpart MS1.

Tuning will be happening all this week... hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.

I NEED my boost! ...this '97 Sunfire i've been mobbing around in just don't have the Power.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Tue Nov 02, 2010 2:18 pm

President not sure here: don't know what exactally happened, but I can guess... But right now I'm sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow, but I think I just broke either a connecting rod or it's bolts in the #1 cylinder... Now I make a sad face cause I just got laid off

Ears93 · Post by **Ears93** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:24 am

Mad Menace wrote:President not sure here: don't know what exactally happened, but I can guess... But right now I'm sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow, but I think I just broke either a connecting rod or it's bolts in the #1 cylinder... Now I make a sad face cause I just got laid off

Thats sucks man!!! I hope everything turns around for ya soon.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:05 am

Lol, Ill drop the pan tomorrow and see what treasures it beholds to let me know what I've gotten myself into... If I find 2 nuts a connecting rod cap and a couple of bearings like I think I'll find, it'll mean a new crank, bearings and connecting rods, which while I'm at it may as well drop in a new set of piston rings... but for now I will probably end up taking the old stock engine that is still sitting here complete and in tact, behead it, quarter it and give it a re-vamp... as it only really needed/needs new piston rings, bearings and valve seals, do that and drop it back in for now, but run it on the MS non turbo'd till I can find work and just rebuild this one again only tougher.

I have 3 blocks sitting here but 1 is a narrow block, 2 are complete the old stock one and the temporary boat anchor, and the narrow block is just a short block... but that gives me 3 cranks, 2 blocks, 1 sohc, 1 dohc and 12 stock pistons and connecting rods, 4 billet pistons 1 big ass turbo and more spare parts than anyone really needs... until they find themselves in a situation like this.

and honestly it gives me something to do besides sit here and go nuts... it'll be up and running within the week probably...lol (knocks on wood)

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:06 am

Man, your avatar pic sure messes stuff up... how'd it even let you have it that big?

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:10 pm

It's rest in pieces status... Connecting rod broke ripping the wrist pin out of the piston and smacked the casting for the main oil galley at the #1 connecting rod/ crank connecting point...

Anybody know of any possible repercussions of using 8v pistons with a 16v head temporarily?
Cause I'm thinking of just dropping this head on the old stock block for now cause I really need transportation

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:54 pm

Sorry to hear about your engine troubles. was hoping to see some video of it running down the road under boost!

I have a complete rebuild 93 4g63 long block with 14b on it sitting in my garage wanting a new home....

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:01 pm

Oi... Last thing I need is a 4g63 narrow block sitting around... Lol it won't mate to the 5 speed, and I have a 8v stocker long block sitting here, with over 160k on it
I was hoping to get videos up too, but apparently that connecting rod had different plans... If you know me like you think you might, you can trust in the fact that this thing will be running again very soon, even if it is on old worn parts

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:39 pm

as long ans you have enough valve relief in the piston top swap away. you can make this with a air grinder and a red cookie. just dont push it or you gonna break the ringlands right off. this is by no means anyway close to the right way to do it but if your in a pinch it will work temporarly

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:55 pm

Get 'r done!

I am certain you are as tenacious as I am when it comes to making stuff work out.

Best of luck. If you need any parts, post up and I am sure they will be available.

Ears93 · Post by **Ears93** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:24 am

Mad Menace wrote:Man, your avatar pic sure messes stuff up... how'd it even let you have it that big?

I dunno...Took it off. Sorry fellas.

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:12 am

So what would menace do?
In less than a day I fished the anchor out from under the hood, be headed and quartered it, fished the stock engine out of the shed, beheaded and quartered it, stripped it for cleaning and tossed in new sets of bearings and rings and slapped the DOHC oil pump, water pump and timing tensioners and finally head, the 8v/12v pistons fit just fine under the 16v head... I only have a few minor things to do to be running again, like install and plumb theradiator, wire a few things up to the megasquirt and fire her up...
I just hope it don't blow up right away

Ears93 · Post by **Ears93** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:25 pm

Mad Menace wrote: I just hope it don't blow up right away

Think happy thoughts!!!

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:50 pm

I hate these water pumps, like who the he'll ever thought of the pop in style rear pipe connection and convinced the developers that it was actually functional should be shot in the knee caps, nursed back to health and taught to walk again, then shot in the knee caps again... 10+ years I've owned this truck and that fitting has never once sealed the way it was supposed to... Right now I wait 24 hours for the ultra grey to dry so I can once again fill the cooling system and pressure test it again...
If I have to drop it out again for any reason, I'll thread the hole and drop in a real fitting that won't leak

Egoinstigator · Post by **Egoinstigator** » Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:20 pm

I am with you on the water pump Menace... That confounded me the first time I saw it... and I thought Chevy was the only one to do stupid designs like that.

I can't stand the piss poor timing chain covers on small blocks. THank goodness for LS based motors. mwaahahahah!

Get it going and video it!

Mad Menace · Post by **Mad Menace** » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:54 am

Well it still didn't seal completely but I'll do something temporary about it like alumaseal or something... Cause I've been stuck home for 8 days now and worse yet without Internet access, I gotta get out so as it sits it's hopefully ready to run but I'll have to check my timing with the MS just to be sure and give it a shot, when she starts... I'm going to Starbucks at the very least :p
Wish me luck

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:11 am

http://www.jayracing.com/index.php?main ... cts_id=215

hope it doesn't blow on you again. Are you still going to run N/A first or are you going turbo right off the bat? Most likely the N/A sohc pistons have higher compression. Run less timing and richer a/f ratios.