Evo 4G with R154 into S13/Sil80

[jezz_s13]

Hi,

I've been loitering long enough with no action, so yesterday I actually made a start on my conversion, and today a friend (we'll call him Steve from now on ) came round to help.

The plan is to fit a stroked/forged Evo 4G with Toyota R154 into the S13.
The engine is an E6 block, E8 head with 4G64 crank, and a bunch of other stuff which as yet isn't 100% decided upon, and a GT35R for starters.

I've been in communication with the master of bell housings for a while, and a few weeks ago I received one of Bill's children which he'd conceived for the Evo block. Thanks again Bill.

I have an E8 starter which I was going to use, which is a very small/light unit, but sadly it doesn't fit so I've sourced an E1-3 starter which fits; I gather is the same engine as your Gen2?

Anyway, I have a knackered (crankwalked) E4 lump which I'm using for all of the fabrication work.
I bought two of the Starion motor mounts, but the Evo block only has the relevant holes on one side (the LHS, or exhaust on an Evo 4-9 engine) the good news is that this lines up very well with the stock engine mounting position on the front crossmember.
For the other side Steve is making a plate that will pick up on three holes on the block, which the Starion bracket will be bolted/welded to.

Some pictures of the progress so far... (excuse the cam cover, it got flambéed )

[Mad Menace]

Are you really gonna put that burned out, fire ridden engine in that clean engine bay like that? or was that just for mock up/kodak moment purposes?

[jezz_s13]

Anyway, I have a knackered (crankwalked) E4 lump which I'm using for all of the fabrication work.

Just for the fab.

[Bill Hincher]

how kooooooooooooowl is that .;o)

[jezz_s13]

how kooooooooooooowl is that .;o)

Cool enough.

The mount spacers for the LHS (to centralise the engine to the tunnel) and the adaptor plate for the other side have been made, so should get it mounted properly at the weekend.
Will also endeavour to get the gearbox on and some sort of bracketry designed for it.
The Toyota gearbox support is in pretty much (within 1") the same palce as the stock S13 'box mount, so a but of tinkering with the S13 support should see the box happily mounted with minimal effort.

A quick phone quality picture of the real and unmanky engine block to make Mr Menace happier.

[Bill Hincher]

outstanding Jezz, just outstanding, is it winter there? will you build the prject for next summer racing season?

[jezz_s13]

Yeah it's winter here, bloody miserable too. Though probably drier than our summer, just colder.

The plan is to get it on the road around march/april, but there's a lot to do.
Plenum/Manifold are my biggest concerns at the minute and this from experience can take ages to resolve.

[Bill Hincher]

now THAT I can help you with, are you using a first gen 4g63 head?

[jezz_s13]

No, it's an Evo 8 head.
I was hoping to use my old custom CA plenum and make an adaptor intermedary manifold using a bit of CA intake setup and the flange from an Evo plenum.
But due to it being a bit awkward to do, and there not being enough room as the 4G is upright (CA was angled); it's not an option.






I'm not really sure a doctored std Evo plenum is the right thing for the job with my power goals.

I may contact the guy that made the CA plenum to see what he can do.

[Bill Hincher]

what made you decide on such a huge plenum with such short runners?

[jezz_s13]

Big power/high flow, I guess.
Theoretically shorter runners are better for bigger power, though at the dertiment of low revs torque.

The runners are not quite as short as that as one of these goes between the head and plenum. It was one of these that we were planning in modifying to take the evo intake flange.
I may revist that idea, but don't think it's feasible.




This is the place that made the CA18 plenum...
http://customplenums.com

They also do a 4G63 one, but I would require one with different orientation.
http://customplenums.com/site/index.php ... &Itemid=31

[Bill Hincher]

I bought a new EVO9 engine block and checked the headgasket, the trick is NOT to put an EVO head on a 6 bolt 4G63, but to put a first gen 4G63 head on an EVO block. the first gen has much bigger intake ports




Just a thought

[jezz_s13]

Interesting.
The problem with that is that the exh and intake are on the wrong sides to the Evo setup and the S13 chassis. The floor pan is recessed for the exhaust, and all of my kit is setup for that way round.

What made you buy a new E9 block, do you have an evil plan?

[Bill Hincher]

for the RHD cars the exhaust is better on the EVO head, but we have left hand drive cars , so its better to have the exhaust on the passenger side

I spent time talking to some guys that race the 4G63 and they all said they use the first gen 4G head over the EVO because of the intake ports

I bought to block to make sure of my measurements on bellhousings, that and I was building the 7 bolt coupler for the auto transmission option

[jeffball610]

If you're going with one of those sheet metal intakes, it's really easy to just flip the plenum upside down. I had a JMF unit like that. Unfortunately it didn't clear my brake booster, and I had to trade for some other parts.

I think you should stick with the EVO head for several reasons. One minor reason would be the valve reliefs in the pistons. In the S13, the exhaust is easier to run on the driver's side and is even okay to run like that here on LHD cars. It's made that way.

The R154 should be pretty easy to fit in there as well. On my Datsun (into which numerous SR20DET motors have been swapped) the transmission mount bolt holes are very close to where the Toyota unit bolts up. You should also have plenty of room in the tunnel, despite how large the transmission looks.

Good luck with the project and keep us posted. Hope someone here can help you with some more questions, but it looks like you have most of it figured out.

[jezz_s13]

Gah, I thought you'd have a GT55 powered cunning plan for that block, Bill.

The gen1 head sounds interesting for sure, but I'll stick with the Evo head as I have 2 and they are the right way around. Besides Evos are generally not shy at making silly power.
What box shall I fix when I get bored of smashing r154s up, and can you make it fit, Bill? I quite fancy a G-force box, but a lot of money.

Thanks for the support Jeff; yeah I have most things sorted in my head and was pleased with the first session of work on the car. I was expecting the mounting to be a complete PITA, but it's all good.
I'll be a lot happier when I've have a proper plan for plenum and exh manifold. A nice cast t3/t4 topmount with Turbosmart 48mm flange would be just ideal!
Once they are done I can suss the water, make the loom, sort the pipework etc.

There's not vast amounts of room down the tunnel for the gearbox, but it'll be ok. Yeah the Toyota mount is just about spot on to the S13 chassis.
I need a shifter extension, I'm going to copy the ridiculously overpriced solution that tech2 offer.
http://tech2motorsports.com/products.php?p=673
We'll attempt to make it a bit lower profile than that one though for maximum tunnel clearance, it would be nice not to have to clobber/cut the chassis at all.

LOL at the numerous SRs, why do you think I'm going to the effort of fitting the 4G? I do like to be a little different, but the 4G is far greater than the SR.
I was running a CA at ~460 before, I would never entertain the SR20 sewing machine.

[Bill Hincher]

Gah, I thought you'd have a GT55 powered cunning plan for that block, Bill.

Not allowed >;o) my intesity is too great.my body get addicted to its own adrenalin ( true story) it took years to come down from racing last time

What box shall I fix when I get bored of smashing r154s up, and can you make it fit, Bill? I quite fancy a G-force box, but a lot of money.

you break an R 154 and I will build you anything you want FREE

Once they are done I can suss the water, make the loom, sort the pipework etc.

what is 'suss the water'?

[jezz_s13]

Gah, I thought you'd have a GT55 powered cunning plan for that block, Bill.

Not allowed >;o) my intesity is too great.my body get addicted to its own adrenalin ( true story) it took years to come down from racing last time

LOL, better than being hooked on crystalmeth though I suppose.

What box shall I fix when I get bored of smashing r154s up, and can you make it fit, Bill? I quite fancy a G-force box, but a lot of money.

you break an R 154 and I will build you anything you want FREE

I'll hold you to that.
I think it's quite likely that the r154 will break at some point but they are cheap here, around $200.
I have had mine modded with a hardened 1st gear thrust washer, which might help a bit.
A friend killed one with a measly 4-450bhp SR doing drag launches and sticky tyres. I'm quite surprised at this actually as I thought they were better than that.
The MKIV supra box, V160 is supposed to be a strong box, but not that cheap. Have you investigated that box before with a view to making a housing, Bill?

Once they are done I can suss the water, make the loom, sort the pipework etc.

what is 'suss the water'?

Sorry, i mean coolant routes, remote stat etc.

[Bill Hincher]

I'll hold you to that.
I think it's quite likely that the r154 will break at some point but they are cheap here, around $200.
I have had mine modded with a hardened 1st gear thrust washer, which might help a bit.
A friend killed one with a measly 4-450bhp SR doing drag launches and sticky tyres. I'm quite surprised at this actually as I thought they were better than that.
The MKIV supra box, V160 is supposed to be a strong box, but not that cheap. Have you investigated that box before with a view to making a housing, Bill?

My word is always good Jezz, are you talking about the getrag?
did you see the work I put into the remote thermostate and the reverse flow head gasket?

[Arktis]

Jezz, can you show us more about how you're mounting this motor? This is highly relevant to my interests.

[jezz_s13]

My word is always good Jezz, are you talking about the getrag?

I don't doubt that.
Yes the getrag 233 - it looks a bit awkward as there doesn't appear to be a 'dry' removable bellhousing.
The big power supra boys seem to get on well with them.

did you see the work I put into the remote thermostate and the reverse flow head gasket?

Not sure I've seen the remote stats, no?
I don't want to mess with the flow through the head/block, so will keep the rear exit.

[jezz_s13]

Jezz, can you show us more about how you're mounting this motor? This is highly relevant to my interests.

Yes, of course.
What is your project?

Steve visited again today, like any good wise man he came bearing gifts.
Namely some spacers for the LHS mount and a plate for the RHS, all made of 6mm mild steel.

RHS... Excuse the quality of this picture.


Better quality...


LHS...


As you can see the LHS is done, and the block is central thanks to the spacers.

The engine mounts I'm using are from Ford Mk1 Escort i think, I got them from here http://hardparts.com.au and the part number is MT8152N.
I have an 8mm spacer on either side of the mount in order to keep the sump off the PAS rack.

I have tried a few different mounts, urethane/delrin (solid), nismo and these. These are by far the best they don't allow much movement but don't transmit too much noise to the chassis.


So, back to the progress. We fitted the box today, it soon became evident that some tunnel surgery is going to be required.
I took the shifter housing off and was able to get the engine and box level with the internal selector lever just clear of the tunnel; so I'll have to do a bit of chopping for the selector housing to clear.
Steve has taken the selector housing away to extend it; it will be extended by 5"; this will centralise the shifter in the stock hole.

I'll attempt to look at the requirements for the box support this week; it's current;y be held up by a strap.
As there is so little clearance I want to make the gearbox mount reasonably solid, but not as solid as the one I made for the CA; that was silly.

[tonyg64]

looking good jez now if i could get bill to do me a C4 bell to fit mine

Tony

[jezz_s13]

looking good jez now if i could get bill to do me a C4 bell to fit mine

Tony

If I say I've broke the r154, he'll make me a free one.

This is Tony BTW folks, I was planning on introducing him later when engine things begin to happen.

[Bill Hincher]

I wanted to use a remote thermostate that was dynamic instaed of dynamic

[Bill Hincher]

I have been asked for the C4 ford set up, but nobdy ever follows through on it, I need to know which C4 is popular

[tonyg64]

I have been asked for the C4 ford set up, but nobdy ever follows through on it, I need to know which C4 is popular

Probably me on pm

As far as C4's go post '70 is better. These are known as pan fills as opposed to case fills from pre 70.

The pan fills have the bell bolted to the perimeter of the box whereas the case fill bell bolts up using the pump bolts. Internals on either if from a V8 will be basically the same so are both upgradable to take 1000hp if you spend big money or 500hp for $400 rebuild.

Tony

[Arktis]

Jezz, can you show us more about how you're mounting this motor? This is highly relevant to my interests.

Yes, of course.
What is your project?

Awesome, thanks for the pics. I know what I'm going to be working with soon, now.

I'm tossing a 64 wide and FC3S TII Trans into a 91 liftback S13.

Unfortunately, I decided to do everything backwards and am working on the exterior and interior before doing mechanical.

I'll be following this thread.

[jezz_s13]

Awesome, thanks for the pics. I know what I'm going to be working with soon, now.

No prob, hopefully have some more soon for you.

I'm tossing a 64 wide and FC3S TII Trans into a 91 liftback S13.

Cool, AFAIK that box is a fair bit longer so shouldn't have as much grief with shifter position.
Is the box up to 4G torque?

Unfortunately, I decided to do everything backwards and am working on the exterior and interior before doing mechanical.

Doh! All show no go, uh?

[Arktis]

No prob, hopefully have some more soon for you.

I'll be looking forward to more pics of your project for sure. I'm following both you and DoubleJ's projects right now.

Cool, AFAIK that box is a fair bit longer so shouldn't have as much grief with shifter position.
Is the box up to 4G torque?

I was worried about bolting location, but considering the guy that's helping to guide me through what I need to do, this won't be too much of a headache. The only part that worries me is the assorted information that these transmission both can and can't handle power. Alot of people say it can't handle the torque, yet there's an equally large group that says they can. Neither seem to provide info on why, but both have equally sound theories. I won't know until it's together though. If it blows up, no real loss. Just gotta upgrade to a PPG gearset.

Doh! All show no go, uh?

Oh no no no, don't get me wrong. I'm aiming for 450RWHP off the bat on a 4G64. I just want to get the interior and exterior in nice condition before dropping everything in. Don't wanna get everything together, only to pull it ALL back out to paint the car.

Also, of the 4 options I have available to me, I prefer the look of the GT-R R32 front end... I mean, $500 USD for almost the entire front end (except chassis itself) of an R32 is pretty decent in my opinion...and it wasn't because I'm trying to build a "GT-R clone" in the states.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/ ... _08611.jpg

It'll look good once it's actually put on properly, not just hanging together for a quick shot.

[Bill Hincher]

whats going on jezz?

[jezz_s13]

whats going on jezz?

Hi Bill,

Not a lot, snow, ice and temperatures between -9 and 0 have been putting me off entering the garage.
I have been sorting some old CA stuff and getting it sold though so I can invest in some 4G bits.

I spent a bit of time looking at the gearbox mount at the weekend, it looks like i might be able to use the std CA/SR/KA mounts/bracket with a small amount of modification, which is nice.

We're promised balmy temperatures of around 5 degrees soon so I'll get more done.

[jezz_s13]

Quick update.

Not much to report again, the gearbox brace has been designed and semi-fabricated.
Should get this done by the end of the week.

I've been suffering from a cold so have spent the time productively by organising a list of goodies for the engine build.

[Bill Hincher]

lemme tell you about that cold, its been 3weeks and I cant shake it!

nice to see you Jezz

[jezz_s13]

Hello.

Steve and I have been working on the gearbox mount on and off for a week or so. we just trial fitted it and it's looking good.

Next weekend I should have pics of the finished article and possibly some of the engine mounts. Rather than hack around with the Starion mounts using spacers etc, Steve is making a fresh set using the work we've done already with the starion mounts as reference.

There are some pics below of the gearbox mount so far.

I've also finally spec'd and ordered the engine components for the build and a quartermaster twin plate clutch. I'll post some pictures of these when it all arrives.

I've got a friend that makes propshafts, so I'm hoping he'll come round in the next week to have a look and a measure up for me.

The gearbox mount utilises the stock S13 support beam, which I've cut some slots in and slotted in a plate which picks up on the stock Toyota mount.

The r154 box that I have (not sure if it's the same on all) has three pairs of holes which the gearbox mount can bolt to, I'm using the rear most pair to give a bit of clearance from the S13 support beam.





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Bill, would you have a collection of pictures of the Gen 2 plenum and intake?

[Bill Hincher]

yeah ,jezz, what do you need?

[jezz_s13]

Thanks Bill.

The flange to the head is of particular interest.
And a general one each of the top and bottom would be good.

Sorry to be awkward, but could you hold a tape measure against them, so I can get an idea of dimension?

Does the plenum go straight to the head, or is there an intermediary manifold?

[jezz_s13]

Here's a low res 'phone picture of the finished gearbox mount that Steve has just sent to me.



That should do the job.

[boise-nic]

That's a nice looking mount! If you'll permit me to ask a dumb question...How important is the weight pushing down onto the mount from the transmission? What I mean is I've moved the engine mounts 3" forward and the tranmission and engine are almost perfectly balanced. I can move the trans up and down with one finger (pivoting on the engine mounts). On my trans (w58), the mount sits in a 'vee' that I'm assuming keeps it aligned. I'm wondering if not having a lot of force pushing down will make it wobble or flap around more. The weight of the driveshaft will help but I don't think it would be much.

[jezz_s13]

That's a good question, one to which I don't know the answer to. Sorry.
I'm more than happy for the debate to ensue here.

I expect with good mounts you'll not have too much problem (assuming it is a problem).

Which raises the question, are there any aftermarket poly mounts for the r154?

[Bill Hincher]

http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1313

here is some of my intake work Jezz

[Bill Hincher]

That's a nice looking mount! If you'll permit me to ask a dumb question...How important is the weight pushing down onto the mount from the transmission? What I mean is I've moved the engine mounts 3" forward and the tranmission and engine are almost perfectly balanced. I can move the trans up and down with one finger (pivoting on the engine mounts). On my trans (w58), the mount sits in a 'vee' that I'm assuming keeps it aligned. I'm wondering if not having a lot of force pushing down will make it wobble or flap around more. The weight of the driveshaft will help but I don't think it would be much.

ever hear of plane crashes on take off on a warm summer day? when the aircraft couldnt clear the trees at the end of the runway?

there is a formula for wieghts and balance used for aircraft, its a tetter tottor really, it uses the fact that the wings are a fixed center of gravity and where you place wieght in the aircraft will balance the aircraft front to rear. A good pilot will always overload the nose of the aircraft to make sure the aircraft will go into a dive in the event of a problem

the same fomula applies to the balance of the engine, place the mounts too far forward and it overstresses the bellhousing bolts, place it too far back and the tailshaft wants to raise up

I will have to look it up and apply it here when I get time

[DoubleJ]

Any updates on the silvia swap? Pictures / videos etc?

[jezz_s13]

Any updates on the silvia swap? Pictures / videos etc?

Hi,

Well I guess a fair amount has happened since I last updated the thread, but no where near as much as I'd have liked for one reason or another.
What has been happening has happened so slowly there's never been much to report in one go LOL.

However, I'll have a rummage for pics and construct a proper reply.

[DoubleJ]

Any updates on the silvia swap? Pictures / videos etc?

Well I guess a fair amount has happened since I last updated the thread, but no where near as much as I'd have liked for one reason or another.
What has been happening has happened so slowly there's never been much to report in one go LOL.

However, I'll have a rummage for pics and construct a proper reply.

No problem. It has been the same situation for me. Its taking awhile. I just get a little done at a time when I have the time. Doing the similar swap but in 240sx.

[jezz_s13]

Ok, looking back over the thread the stuff below is the stuff you don't know about.

The state of play now is that the engine mounting is complete, and the new engine is fundamentally built.
Before the new engine goes in, what remains is pipework (intake, exhaust and coolant), engine loom and a good tidyup of the engine bay.

The remote gearshifter is compete and working, was a bit of a pig. Sadly no pics other than the early ones at the top of the thread, it's moved on a bit since then.

Anyway, I bought some bits for the engine from MAPerformance, very helpful and a pleasure to deal with.

Here's a collage picture of much of the shiny stuff, rods, pistons, big valves, springs, L19 head studs, yada yada...



The engine is fundamentally built, but sadly no pics.

Of that lot, the most pertinant to the people here I guess would be the clutch, it's a twinplate Quartermaster item which the guys as MAP helped me spec. basically a 2G flywheel with Toyota discs with hardenend hubs.
I'm using MR2 ARP flywheel bolts.








I got hold of an Evo 6 thermostat housing/distribution block, this is a much better solution than the earlier ones as it affords a bit more clearnace to the bulkhead, as the stat cover is on top, rather than at the back, and altering the coolant flow through the front of the head doesn't sit too comfortably with me.



A friend who works at a company that makes propshafts has made a 2-piece shaft for me, using a Toyota spline, a Jaguar centre bearing and Nissan rear flange.
The best pic I have...



I spent a long time messing around with a Toyota 1ZZ 35-1 crank trigger wheel and sensor making them work with my ECU, got there in the end.
As we've deleted the balance shaft, the sensor will be mounted in the space left and the trigger wheel mounted directly to the crank replacing the balance shaft drive.
I was hoping to use the balance shaft pully, but there was an odd number of teeth so couldn't get a sensible number of degrees per tooth.






I managed to find an Magnus Evo 4-8 plenum and Steve did the job of chopping it in half and flipping it, this is the only picture i can find though from before it was chopped...
There an AMS fuel rail for that, and I'm using an Jaguar DBW trottle body.




I bought a dash and did 95% of the donkey work with the wiring and installation, just needs a few stickers making for the telltales and ECU selectors etc.








The MAP boys also supplied an ERL cast stainless 2G Exh Manifold which fits perfectly, well almost as the PAS pump will need to be moved.





I'm pretty sure I've got more pics somewhere on my camera and my old phone so I'll try to find them, and perhaps I may even take some more!

I found a few more pics, in not particular order.

[TsTKl]

thats an aim sport mxl, isn't it? did you get the base model or the pista or the pro? I've been planning on getting the pista for a while now. have you used race studio? how do you like it? how many speed inputs will you be using?

Also, the 1g dsm heads do not flow better. We've swapped many cars from a 2g head to a 1g and a 1g head to a 2g and they ALWAYS make more power on the 2g head. Turbo cars don't need massive runners, velocity is more important. Plus, if you REALLY wanted the bigger ports, its not like the material isn't there for you to port it that far out, it will just kill your intake velocity because your not only going bigger but your also destroying the angle at which the air hits the valves. Plus then he would have to get the injector bungs moved on his intake manifold. They currently intersect the flange, which would cause a massive leak on a 1g head.

[jezz_s13]

thats an aim sport mxl, isn't it? did you get the base model or the pista or the pro? I've been planning on getting the pista for a while now. have you used race studio? how do you like it? how many speed inputs will you be using?

It's an AIM Strada MXL, the base model with limited/no logging.
http://www.aimsports.com/products/mxl-strada/index.html

I use my ECU for logging, and I use the data output of the ECU to feed data to the AIM, the AIM doesn't really have any sensors attached, other than fuel level.
I've not used race studio at all yet, other than to calibrate/configure the dash. However, with little logging it won't be much uses I wouldn't have thought.

[4g63tgsx]

Sick build man i been checking your progress and it's getting there. my evo engine swap is taking a while too and i have to finish it before MOD (mitsubishi owners day) and were not even half way done ...........Good Job bro

[jezz_s13]

Sick build man i been checking your progress and it's getting there. my evo engine swap is taking a while too and i have to finish it before MOD (mitsubishi owners day) and were not even half way done ...........Good Job bro

Did you get yours done?

Needless to say i've got little to update, I've collected a few more bits and thought about what needs to be done a bit more. The domestic project i've been working on has come to an end, so i'm going to give the car some love for a while

Spent a few evenings a couple of weeks ago on working out how DBW works and set it up with my ECU on a test rig.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/Cn71Fdx7a2g

Hopefully the next installment won't take 4.5 months to appear.