EvoIV-IX head on 6 bolt or 7 bolt block.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:41 pm

Is this combination possible? It may have been mentioned earlier, but I'm not sure.

Looks like it might bolt up. Just wondering if anyone had tried it before with any luck. I thought I saw a picture of an EvoIV-IX head on a wideblock before.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Feb 26, 2008 8:37 pm

Looks like the front of the heads is at the top which means that, based on the intake side vs exhaust side, the Evo is on the left and the DSM is on the right.

Now that I look at it it looks like the 3 oil drain holes on the left of the Evo head mean this is impossible on a 6 bolt. How about a 7 bolt? I know those guys have to block off holes in the block when doing a 1G head.

Maybe a 7 bolt wideblock would work?

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:16 pm

Yea it should bolt up to a 7 bolt fine, as the rods and bearings are the same as well...

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Feb 27, 2008 11:44 pm

I wonder if there are any aftermarket 7 bolt wideblock flywheels out there.

madhatch · Post by **madhatch** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:27 am

cant see anyhting.. but arent the exhaust / intake switched? I was looking at the entire evo swap for a while but didnt want to run the exhaust across the tranny / or car...

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:54 am

Yeah it is, but not everyone is swapping into a StarQuest either. Also for the racers out there a side exit will work just fine.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:36 am

What about wideblock 7 bolt stuff?

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:30 pm

this is a topic thats been beaten to death like crazy on the dsm forums.... the timing belts are on the opposite sides,.. its impossible for other reasons beyond that, let this thread die never to be resurfaced now,... thank you

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:17 am

TsTKl wrote:this is a topic thats been beaten to death like crazy on the dsm forums.... the timing belts are on the opposite sides,.. its impossible for other reasons beyond that, let this thread die never to be resurfaced now,... thank you

You clearly know nothing about what you're talking about.

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:02 pm

TsTKl wrote:this is a topic thats been beaten to death like crazy on the dsm forums.... the timing belts are on the opposite sides,.. its impossible for other reasons beyond that, let this thread die never to be resurfaced now,... thank you

L O f'n L

75COLT · Post by **75COLT** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:59 pm

its the guy's first post, welcome to the board!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:37 pm

TsTKl wrote:this is a topic thats been beaten to death like crazy on the dsm forums.... the timing belts are on the opposite sides,.. its impossible for other reasons beyond that, let this thread die never to be resurfaced now,... thank you

it may make sense if you have to consider cam timing and crank timing if the two dont matchup, you have to understand how to relocate the timing set up

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:03 pm

The timing set up does not change at all. The tensioner is on the same side, the engine rotates the same direction. Evo guys that do 2.4L swaps use the same 1994 Galant timing belt and cam gears that we use. The only change is the side in which the intake and exhaust are on and possibly oil drain holes from the head.

My question was asked mainly in regards to the oil and water passages.

I'm amazed at how much "common knowledge" exists out there on DSM and Evo message boards that has no basis in reality.

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:46 pm

oldcolt75 wrote:
TsTKl wrote:this is a topic thats been beaten to death like crazy on the dsm forums.... the timing belts are on the opposite sides,.. its impossible for other reasons beyond that, let this thread die never to be resurfaced now,... thank you
thats great but i belive they are all talking about the 4g63/4g64 .. not the pos 420 A

You obviously haven't looked at the engine bay of an evo IV-IX next to the engine bay of a dsm/evo I-III. They physically rotated the motor 180 degrees. The intake is still located on the firewall side and the exhaust is still located on the radiator side. The heads are not interchangable due to the changes made in the water/oil ports regaurdless, but if you WERE to put a later model evo head on a dsm motor, and it DID bolt up, you would have either the cams spinning backwards (using the evo cams) or the valve timing completely off (using dsm cams).

You guys are also aware that the 7 bolt dsm motors and 6 bolt motors use different size headstuds as well? I would assume that you would have to machine the head for that, assuming the heads did line up, which they dont.

Hell, someone already posted a picture showing exactly why they don't work, but go ahead and try it yourself. With some custom cams you might even get it to run for a couple of seconds before either your oil pressure goes crazy (from ports being clogged), your oil pump being starved (from ports being clogged) or if your lucky and the motor makes it long enough, your motor overheating (from water ports being clogged).

again, if you guys don't believe me, go ahead and try it yourself. You asked if it will work, I answered.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:12 pm

I'm not disagreeing with you necessarily, but I am going to challenge each of your points which seem to be gleaned more from 2nd hand sources of questionable reliability.

TsTKl wrote:You obviously haven't looked at the engine bay of an evo IV-IX next to the engine bay of a dsm/evo I-III. They physically rotated the motor 180 degrees. The intake is still located on the firewall side and the exhaust is still located on the radiator side.

We know the head flows the opposite direction and the intake manifold and exhaust manifolds are on opposite sides. These changes will be no more difficult for this engine swap than most. We may be able to use a 2G DSM manifold instead of swapping the TB flange. Some people have used Evo manifolds on RWD swaps before on earlier engines so that may work.

The heads are not interchangeable due to the changes made in the water/oil ports

We've already seen that an Evo head will not work on a 6 bolt block due to the oil drain holes, but what about the 7 bolt? Here is a picture using a 7 bolt 4G64 bottom end and an Evo head (flipped for comparison). Sorry for the quality, I didn't take this one myself.

The front of the head is at the top and the back is at the bottom. Naturally, there are some holes on the head that do not appear on the block. Only hands-on tracing of each hole can answer this for sure, but all of the main holes are present. Comparing heads to blocks will only get us so far since the headgaskets are the real judge of what flows between the two. Perhaps someone can compare an Evo headgasket to a 7 bolt DSM headgasket.

but if you WERE to put a later model evo head on a dsm motor, and it DID bolt up, you would have either the cams spinning backwards (using the evo cams) or the valve timing completely off (using dsm cams).

Are you aware that the Evo 4G63 and the DSM 4G63 rotate in the same direction? I was unsure at first, but asked people to check for me on evolutionm.net: http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread ... se+counter

You guys are also aware that the 7 bolt dsm motors and 6 bolt motors use different size headstuds as well? I would assume that you would have to machine the head for that, assuming the heads did line up, which they dont.

We'd be putting an Evo head on a 7 bolt. Both heads use the same M11 head bolts. Even the ARP catalog doesn't differentiate between the two.

Hell, someone already posted a picture showing exactly why they don't work, but go ahead and try it yourself. With some custom cams you might even get it to run for a couple of seconds before either your oil pressure goes crazy (from ports being clogged), your oil pump being starved (from ports being clogged) or if your lucky and the motor makes it long enough, your motor overheating (from water ports being clogged). again, if you guys don't believe me, go ahead and try it yourself. You asked if it will work, I answered.

I hope you stick around and can help to contribute more to this thread.

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:09 am

The title of this thread does read "Evo IV-IX head on a 6 bolt block?" so that would be why I was assuming you were talking about that.

As far as people using the evo intake manifold on any dsm motor, Im curious as to how anyone went about doing this, seeing as the EGR port was relocated to the opposite side for the evo motors. Obviously I don't care to keep the EGR, but it would appear that the evo intake manifold's port will prevent the manifold from being completely bolted down as other things get in the way of it. I had planned on using an evo intake manifold, and simply cutting the egr port flange off and welding it shut farther up, but I don't know how clean of a job this would be and how effective it would be. I would also need to plug the egr port on the opposite side of the head.

as for the picture you posted, the ports do differ in size and such, which I agree wouldn't entirely be an issue preventing the motor from running, but those two faces must be mated, which would require you to either flip the head across its vertical axis as it sits, or both its vertical and horizontal axis. Both of which would appear to result in more ports not lining up (the first of those two being assured, the latter being more likely than not).

I know a lot of shops that work on evo's and dsms of all types. One would be lead to believe that it would have been tried in every which way if it seem fesable. Next time Im at my local shop I'll ask to compair the headgaskets of the two and get some cell phone pics, but that most likely won't happen until the week of the 21st.

Again, I remember doing a lot of research on evo parts that can be used on dsm motors and I remember that the evo head wasn't useful on anything.

for what its worth, the only head swaps I've seen done are the evo I-III on a 6 bolt, a 7 bolt on a 6 bolt, and a 6 bolt on a 7 bolt. As well as an evo III head on a 7 bolt. It would appear that if the ports don't match on one block, there wouldn't be any reason why it would work on the other.

marck_c · Post by **marck_c** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:29 am

Hell, someone already posted a picture showing exactly why they don't work, but go ahead and try it yourself. With some custom cams you might even get it to run for a couple of seconds before either your oil pressure goes crazy (from ports being clogged), your oil pump being starved (from ports being clogged) or if your lucky and the motor makes it long enough, your motor overheating (from water ports being clogged).

ORLY. How then do you explain this....

Yes, it's a Evo 8 Head on a 1st Gen 4G63 block. Someone should have told this guy that what he did was impossible.

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:30 am

I'd like to see more proof on this car, since first of all, it looks like that car is far from running. If that is supposed to be a running car, it would have to be a track only car, in which case running something such as methonal would result in no need for coolant, therefore no need for coolant passages, let alone ports that lined up. Also, that could easily be an evo motor completely swapped into a dsm using a custom bell housing and such. It looks like a very very very custom car and anything with that level of customization could have any of many explinations behind how it was done.

also, on an irrelivant sidenote I would like to add, that is one of the ugliest cars I've ever seen before in my life. It looks like it could possibly be an evo 6 (or at least the front bumper). Whatever it is, the lack of a front frame structure leads me to believe whatever motor thats in that car is nothing close to the one it came with.

marck_c · Post by **marck_c** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:35 am

TsTKl wrote:I'd like to see more proof on this car, since first of all, it looks like that car is far from running. If that is supposed to be a running car, it would have to be a track only car, in which case running something such as methonal would result in no need for coolant, therefore no need for coolant passages, let alone ports that lined up. Also, that could easily be an evo motor completely swapped into a dsm using a custom bell housing and such. It looks like a very very very custom car and anything with that level of customization could have any of many explinations behind how it was done.

also, on an irrelivant sidenote I would like to add, that is one of the ugliest cars I've ever seen before in my life. It looks like it could possibly be an evo 6 (or at least the front bumper). Whatever it is, the lack of a front frame structure leads me to believe whatever motor thats in that car is nothing close to the one it came with.

Sounds like a cas of "If it aint' from around here, we don't want to hear about it/ it's impossible"

It is an Evolution 1 not a 6. It is a road/drag car. It is a 1st gen block, with an evo 8 head. The car has been completed and running for about 3 years. It does not use methanol. It does use coolant (did you notice the large radiator w/fan?)The factory subframe is intact (look closely). The head has been reversed. This is neither impossible or terribly difficult. Many four cylinder Super Tourers (every heard about those?) have this modification. It is not inexpensive or simple, but it can has been done successfully. This car was built in Australia, yes the crazy people who brought us Mad Max, Olivia Newton-John and Motec ECU's. This site I beleive is about custom modifications to DSMs and Starquests, not simple bolt up jobs. I'll post some more pics, as soon as I can dig them up.

Here is where the turbo sits.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:06 am

I bought a new EVO9 engine block and checked the headgasket, the trick is NOT to put an EVO head on a 6 bolt 4G63, but to put a first gen 4G63 head on an EVO block

JDOliver · Post by **JDOliver** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:18 pm

The aussies always do great stuff.

I have to say I can't recall having read a thread on this forum before where someone acted as if it was a DSM forum and everyone here was a bunch of kids.

Things would have never progressed for Starquest owners with thinking like this.

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:15 pm

Wow Bill, that's a nice block you have there. Why would you put the 1G head on the EVO block? I guess the 1G head might flow pretty well in stock form, but I think the EVO unit might be superior. It seems the EVO block and internals are superior to both the 1G and 2G stuff. I'm definitely not saying "don't do it", just curious as to why would you do it.

It looks like there are bolt holes in the block to run RWD mounts on that one side. What about the other side?

No matter what, the intake manifolds are the real "issue" with a RWD swap as they all point away from the cam gears instead of toward.

And to refute any misinformation, the EVO and DSM blocks all rotate the same way not matter what side the intake/exhaust is on. The EVO block is simply put on the other side of the car. The motors are mirrored to each other, not spun 180*.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:58 pm

Bill @showdown motors here in Toledo, is a world record holder using the 4G63 , I asked him about the heads and he said they have tried everything trying to get the smaller port EVO and second gen 4G63 to out perform the first gen 4G63 and they can't do it

the bellhousing bolt pattern is different between the EVO and the 4G,and I will find out if the 7 bolt crank and rods will swap out later, but first I will put the first gen head on it and post some pic's

All I am saying is, the EVO block is interchangeable with the 4G63 block , if using the EVO head is easier on a FWD swap then so be it, if using the first gen cylinder head brings more performance, then so be it

Lunacy · Post by **Lunacy** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 4:10 am

marck_c wrote:
TsTKl wrote:I'd like to see more proof on this car, since first of all, it looks like that car is far from running. If that is supposed to be a running car, it would have to be a track only car, in which case running something such as methonal would result in no need for coolant, therefore no need for coolant passages, let alone ports that lined up. Also, that could easily be an evo motor completely swapped into a dsm using a custom bell housing and such. It looks like a very very very custom car and anything with that level of customization could have any of many explinations behind how it was done.

also, on an irrelivant sidenote I would like to add, that is one of the ugliest cars I've ever seen before in my life. It looks like it could possibly be an evo 6 (or at least the front bumper). Whatever it is, the lack of a front frame structure leads me to believe whatever motor thats in that car is nothing close to the one it came with.
Sounds like a cas of "If it aint' from around here, we don't want to hear about it/ it's impossible" It is an Evolution 1 not a 6. It is a road/drag car. It is a 1st gen block, with an evo 8 head. The car has been completed and running for about 3 years. It does not use methanol. It does use coolant (did you notice the large radiator w/fan?)The factory subframe is intact (look closely). The head has been reversed. This is neither impossible or terribly difficult. Many four cylinder Super Tourers (every heard about those?) have this modification. It is not inexpensive or simple, but it can has been done successfully. This car was built in Australia, yes the crazy people who brought us Mad Max, Olivia Newton-John and Motec ECU's. This site I beleive is about custom modifications to DSMs and Starquests, not simple bolt up jobs. I'll post some more pics, as soon as I can dig them up.

Here is where the turbo sits.

It was actually built here in New Zealand as a drag car by a lad named Zoheb.
Specs are as follows:
Zoheb Razak 8.63@269kph (162mph) as in the latest performance car magazine. Factory anniversary limited edition Mitsubishi Lancer Evo 3, 2L 4cyl 4G63, Evo 8 block, evo 5 head spun 180 degrees, Full forged motor, T51R turbo+60mm wastegate in passenger seat, 4" exhaust exiting passenger door, Custom plenum, All the usual drag stuff (fuel pumps, computer), PPG 4 spd dogbox, Rollcage, Carbon fibre bodywork, Lexan windows, Tube frame chassis from strut towers front and rear, Weld rims, willwood brakes. It was in Performance Car magazine not long ago

So in answer to this thread, no it is not a early evo block in this car.
Very cool car to watch race in the flesh though and LOUD!!!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:34 am

RaptorReed · Post by **RaptorReed** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:22 am

TsTKl wrote:
for what its worth, the only head swaps I've seen done are the evo I-III on a 6 bolt, a 7 bolt on a 6 bolt, and a 6 bolt on a 7 bolt. As well as an evo III head on a 7 bolt. It would appear that if the ports don't match on one block, there wouldn't be any reason why it would work on the other.

Since Bill bumped it, I'd just like to add the point about a Evo 3 head on a 7 bolt (DSM) is repetitive. A Evo 3 is a 7 bolt, all Lancer Evos 1-9 are 7 bolt motors, you aren't changing anything putting a 7 bolt on a 7 bolt. In terms of Evolutions, the Galant VR-4 Evolution (Evo 0) would be your only Evo that is a 6 bolt.

I would like to see more into the development of this possibility of a 1st gen head on a 2nd gen block

PoorMans180SX · Post by **PoorMans180SX** » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:29 am

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/custom- ... ybrid.html