4G63 in 1st gen Rx-7

rotor vs. piston · Post by **rotor vs. piston** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:00 pm

As my first post on this board I must say thank goodness I found this board. I've been researching doing a 4cyl. swap into a first gen Rx-7 for a little while now. My swap history consist of doing a Chevy Small Block and BW T-5 5 speed into an '85 Rx-7. I'm in love with the overall "feel" of 7's. I want to build one that's decently powerful (200whp at least) gets decent gas milage (better than 24mpg on avg.) and daily driviable. I've looked at doing a ford 2.3, they can turn very impressive numbers though I'm not thrilled about having a ford 4cyl in my car. I've thought about a sr20det, but as there all sorced from japan I can't go to my local yard and get all of the parts I need. So this brings me to the 4g63, mabye one of the most under rated engines.

So far my assesment is that a D50 trans will hold up to a few hundered easily driven HP, so my plans so far are to try and get a front clip (or whole car for that matter) with a 4g63 and get a D50 trans and get to work this spring hopfully.

Does anyone have pictures and demesions of the out side of the eninge. The pictures: do you have any large close ups of say a side shot of the engine.

What are the gear ratios of the D50 trans?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:18 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rotor vs. piston @ Nov 7 2004, 03:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So far my assesment is that a D50 trans will hold up to a few hundered easily driven HP, so my plans so far are to try and get a front clip (or whole car for that matter) with a 4g63 and get a D50 trans and get to work this spring hopfully.

Does anyone have pictures and demesions of the out side of the eninge. The pictures: do you have any large close ups of say a side shot of the engine.

What are the gear ratios of the D50 trans? [/quote]
It will hold up more and more the lighter the car is and the final gear ratio. If you're looking to build a motor (sounds like you're not) look into a wideblock 2.4 Build up... gets expensive, but its a good way to go.

As for engine measurements, I might have some numbers laying around, or I could get them off my car... or I'm pulling my next donor motor in a week or so (sooo busy in school right now) and I can measure anything. Make a long list of EVERYTHING you want me to measure, and take pictures of.

Not sure about the ratios, never counted teeth. I'm pretty sure they're the same as the Starion tranny... I think they are on the Transmission section of the site.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:26 pm

If it fits, I would use a wideblock 4g64. The turbo head is a bolt on and you can use the 4g63 crank to make a screamer. Also the starion and Turbo II Rx7 transmissions bolt right up. The truck gearing is much shorter and lower, not a very good combination.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:14 pm

bolt right up.. I'd like to see a picture of that!

underdog · Post by **underdog** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:46 am

I was pleasantly suprised to see this topic pop up. I thought long and hard about swapping a 4G63 into an RX7. It would be a great setup with excellent all-around performance.

I agree with the folks who are suggesting a wide block. I actually have a bellhousing that mates the 4G64 wideblock to a Mazda RX7 Turbo II 5 speed trans. I got it a couple years ago, but I believe it was from a mazda truck. You should be able to dig one up somewhere.

Good luck with it and keep us updated!

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:40 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (underdog @ Nov 14 2004, 03:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I was pleasantly suprised to see this topic pop up. I thought long and hard about swapping a 4G63 into an RX7. It would be a great setup with excellent all-around performance.

I agree with the folks who are suggesting a wide block. I actually have a bellhousing that mates the 4G64 wideblock to a Mazda RX7 Turbo II 5 speed trans. I got it a couple years ago, but I believe it was from a mazda truck. You should be able to dig one up somewhere.

Good luck with it and keep us updated! [/quote]
Thank you very much for clarifying that for us.

donny · Post by **donny** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:49 am

And i thought i was the only one doing a 4g63 in a rx7. Im doing mine in an fc though...

I am still working on a site for it <a href='http://4g63fc3s.com' target='_blank'>http://4g63fc3s.com</a> .

I am still having issues with picking which tranny i want to use.

Not to hijack the thread but I'm Donny.

-Don

donny · Post by **donny** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:52 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mike @ Nov 9 2004, 02:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If it fits, I would use a wideblock 4g64. The turbo head is a bolt on and you can use the 4g63 crank to make a screamer. Also the starion and Turbo II Rx7 transmissions bolt right up. The truck gearing is much shorter and lower, not a very good combination. [/quote]
Yea. If it bolts right up. I still have the wankel in my car. Because well it still runs and i can't seem to blow it up. And all the transmission are the same bolt pattern in the fc's "2nd generation rx7's"

rotor vs. piston · Post by **rotor vs. piston** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 9:07 pm

The basic mesurments I would like are the length of the block from timing cover to where the trany bolts on. The hight of the engine from cams to bottom of the oil pan. What would be great are high res. pictures of all six sides of the engine.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:33 pm

I'll have this info to you tonight. Have a motor in the basement.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 8:00 am

Sooooo... did anybody ever get info on if the RX7 Turbo 2 transmission will work with the wideblock + B2600 bellhousing? I'm REALLY interested in transmission info right now.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:48 pm

What is the big question you are looking to be answered?

I'm positive the transmission will mount to the block with the b2600 bellhousing.
The B2600 engine is a G54B for all intensive purposes, so I'm assuming it used a similar clutch and flywheel. According to the <a href='http://media.centerforce.com/Catalog/2004catalogw.pdf' target='_blank'>Centerforce Catalog</a>, the B2600 and TII both use the same clutch kit. Both have 240mm clutch discs, both have 23x1 splines, and both use the same throwout bearing. This is very similar to the 87-89 Starion, only a different throwout bearing is used. Depending on bellhousing and flywheel differenences, you might need to use the B2600 starter and drive plate. The tailshafts are also all interchangeable between the RX-7, B2600, 929, and MPV, so pick whichever best fits.

My question is simply whether the input shaft lengths are the same between the B2600 and the TII.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:00 am

Prooooove it.

And what side of the B2600 is the starter? And what type of clutch mechanism does it have? Cable or Hydraulic?

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:08 pm

The B2600 and RX-7 are both hydraulic clutches, the starter is on the driver side, and prove what specifically?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 6:06 pm

that it all works together. Why havent SQ guys done it yet?

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:33 pm

Because they don't really have a reason to, the stock trans works fine for them. How many SQC people used a wideblock 4G64 before now?

Why don't you ask some Mazda boards about it? I don't have time for this right now, my tuition is due.

Mike · Post by **Mike** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 7:19 pm

Hey, what about the 97-99 Montero Sport 2.4L? They only came with RWD manual transmissions and they are a hydraulic clutch. It looks to be nearly identical to the 4g64 pickup transmission, clutch, starter, mounting, tailshaft, and shifter. Not sure if it is a narrow or wide block design, but either one might prove useful.

Fabritory · Post by **Fabritory** » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:09 pm

This would make an awsome swap anything over 500lbs. of torque is a garenteed wheelie!

rarson · Post by **rarson** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:25 am

This is a great thread, because I currently have an '86 FC. I was contemplating swapping a 20b into it, but that option is so expensive. I like the rotary engine but it would be much easier for me to build, modify, and tune a 4g63. And being on Guam, I think it would actually be cheaper for me to piece together a stroker than to acquire a turbo rotary engine.

I am going to research more to figure out if I can use a TII tranny, and what I would need to do that. Currently, I was planning on using a TII tranny and modifying the driveshaft I already have to allow me to use it, instead of swapping the shaft and differential and everything. The diff I have is a clutch-type LSD, which I don't mind, and the N/A diff is rather strong.

However, the turbo diffs are even stronger, so if I do decide to drop a 4g64 in the car, I might want to swap that as well. If anyone is wondering, FD guys sometimes swap TII trannies and diffs into their cars as I've been told by others in the rotary world that the TII parts are the strongest of the bunch. TII trannies routinely go for about $250 each; that's less than one-tenth what I paid for my TRE tranny in my Eclipse.

I'm curious what the mounting situation would be like with regards to putting the 4g64 in the RX7 engine bay. Much of the space inside the bay is wasted by the huge fan shroud Mazda put on the slant-mounted radiator to help the belt-driven viscous fan's efficiency, so I'm fairly certain with a conventional fan setup and a slight modification to the radiator position, there'd be plenty of room in there, maybe even for a v-mount setup. I'm just wondering about the engine mounts.

Anyway, if anyone has any more info on putting a 4g63 into any RX7, I'd love to see it. The site 4g63fc3s.com didn't work for me. I know there is some more info about the tranny here that I haven't gotten to yet, but I just found this site. It's awesome, by the way.

rarson · Post by **rarson** » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:39 am

DJ, I don't know if you're still looking for a TII tranny, but I know a guy selling JDM S5 trannies for $250 a piece (plus shipping). He sells tons of JDM motors, trannies, and other RX7 parts. I believe he is based in Los Angeles.

Siance · Post by **Siance** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:19 am

I will tell you now that a t2 tranny is no stonger, i'ts prolly a little weaker than the starion tranny....Don't forget the starion tranny was made to hold lots of tq!! 235ftlbs stock...My brother has a t2 and he says up to about 300hp is all the t2 tranny is good for..alot of the mazda guys go with a 200r4 or something like that pushing big hp!! so i would go with a starion tranny and maybe a higher gear for the rear end if i was doing the swap...

rarson · Post by **rarson** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:00 pm

The TII stuff is bolt-in. It's made for the chassis. Plus there are guys running sub 10-second passes on stock TII stuff. I think it's strong enough for me.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:47 pm

i have some other sources (team falken member) who says that the tii tranny is on par with supra stuff. he also works and sleeps in a rotary performance shop. he might be wrong, for sure. i really doubt its weaker though. i asked another source, who is an rx7 afficianado and johns hopkins master of engineering and he doesnt hear of many non drag racing related transmission failures other than 5th gear synchros on the tii trans. now i must add that another guy with a nuts powerful 3rd gen said they were junk. it was a drag car.

and my shift key is broken... becuase i got pissed off and broke my other keyboard in half.

rarson · Post by **rarson** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:11 am

I agree. Every rotary person I've ever talked to has always said that the TII tranny was the strongest tranny Mazda's ever put in an RX7, including the third-gen. I know the TII guys don't even think about upgrading their boxes at least until the 10-second range. In my opinion, it seems that these trannys are almost as strong as say, a Shep tranny. Which is to say, they're strong but I'm sure someone out there could break them.

The plus is, this is a RWD setup anyway. Much easier to spin the rear tires without breaking anything than all four.

Oh, and if you want a true bullet-proof tranny, you could always get one of these <a href='http://www.gurumotorsports.com/products/gearbox.htm' target='_blank'>TII dogboxes</a>, but they're very pricey.

4GFC · Post by **4GFC** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:46 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Siance @ Apr 25 2005, 01:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I will tell you now that a t2 tranny is no stonger, i'ts prolly a little weaker than the starion tranny....Don't forget the starion tranny was made to hold lots of tq!! 235ftlbs stock...My brother has a t2 and he says up to about 300hp is all the t2 tranny is good for..alot of the mazda guys go with a 200r4 or something like that pushing big hp!! so i would go with a starion tranny and maybe a higher gear for the rear end if i was doing the swap... [/quote]
Well your brother don't know shit about TII transmissions. They are the same as the FD3S and good to about 500ft/lbs.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:13 pm

Anybody find any B2600 bellhousings yet?

I got my first chance to do a side by side comparison. Both driveshafts are the same size tubing, but the RX7 has non-rebuildable u-joints (no c-clips). The output shaft size is larger than the starion and the batch I have seal REALLY good in the transmission (and it makes a really cool sound when you pull the shaft out

). Moving forward, the speedo cable from the starion and FC are the same. The speedometer will work... and will most definatly be off by a large factor (you can make your own guage faces if you'd like). The shifter location is 5" or so farther back than the Mitsubishi setup. This is ideal if you are moving the engine forward 2". I'm building a race car and want the shifter with me.. almost in the back seat. The trans crossmember is a very VERY similar design to that of the mitsubishi. It isnt THAT close though. It will require some cutting and welding to get it to work. The "box" is slightly taller than the Mitsu box, its almost narrower though (both are bottom loaders). The input shaft is the same as the starion / D50 (I put my starion disk on it to check). Cant wait to get a B2600 bellhousing to see if it will work.

4GFC · Post by **4GFC** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 11:00 am

I've look on car-part.com and found some B2600 bells for about 75 bucks. Have you looked there?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:31 pm

I'm pretty sure those are the wrong years. I'd have to see photos of them before I bought again. Already have $120 in wrong bellhousings.

4GFC · Post by **4GFC** » Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:35 pm

87-88 B2600 should do the trick? What bells do you have?

rarson · Post by **rarson** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:19 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (4GFC @ Jun 20 2005, 10:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well your brother don't know shit about TII transmissions. They are the same as the FD3S and good to about 500ft/lbs. [/quote]
I don't know what exactly is different between the TII and FD trannies, but they are actually different. The TII is a little bit stronger than the FD tranny.

What ever became of the pilot bearing issue?

4GFC · Post by **4GFC** » Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:09 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rarson @ Jul 19 2005, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I don't know what exactly is different between the TII and FD trannies, but they are actually different. The TII is a little bit stronger than the FD tranny.
[/quote]
No, they are litterally the same tranny. There is no differece between the two except gear ratios. Otherwise they ARE THE SAME Mazda R series transmission.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:39 am

Pretty sure the 3rd gen is a pull type clutch and the TII is a push type. That might be for crazy aftermarket stuff though.

donny · Post by **donny** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:17 pm

Ok.. Im back. Well back to figure out what to do. Anyone ever figure out what bellhousing to use? And sorry for the people that tried to check out 4g63fc3s.com it's been done well because i never updated it and never did any work on the car or the swap. Now it's just buggin me. I keep askin around and want something to work. If people don't know im gonna be doing the FC. I am located in wisconsin. In milwaukee,WI there is an older gentlemen that is and determend to do a 4g63 in a FD rx7. He is a very good enginer so I hope he can figure something out. Very knowledgeable guy. He was down where i work to measure the 4g63 for mounting and stuff. I hope he documents everything he does. If he doesn't put it online I will for him. If people have questions about the 4g63 or variants feel free to contact me about it. I do work at a dsm specific shop. If i don't know it, my boss will. I just wanted to give an update where I'm at (no where). Anyone else getting anywhere? Im just basically putting money away to deal with the tranny ordeal that I'm gonna have. Thanks

-Don

P.S IF want to contact me via any way else just PM me.

Thanks again.