1975 Triumph Spitfire

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:40 pm

My spitfire is pretty fine car in the corners. It's got nearly 50/50 weight balance and can pull .87 on the skidpad wearing bias-ply shoes. The problem comes in before and after the corner. In fact it takes most of a sunday to get to the corner. Original factory specs call for a whopping 70Hp. Now my car is 30 years older and there is no way I'm getting those lofty numbers anymore. I had originally considered using a small V-8. A mild 300 Hp build up and I would solve all my power needs. But at what cost to my weight balance? Too great a price I think. So I heard about this new Ecotec and it's stated 250Hp and immediately started trying to get one. Two years ago I couldn't find a single one in north america. So I started looking for a more viable option and found out about the 4G63T. Factory spec of 220Hp should wake up this car, and then the possibility of a reliable 300Hp monster from the same block sealed the deal. Now I'm here and the rest is future history. And questions.

Princess coming home.

Out with the old.

Here is the new.

And here is how far I've gotten before the first major issue.

I have a cross member that is going to be a problem.
I don't want this,

to happen to may car so I am going to need to do something about this cross member.

The oil pan sump is going to sit right between the two white jack handles. A relocated sump won't help me because I need the engine to literally sit between the frame rails with the pan hanging below in a way that will always keep me on edge. I may need a different sump plan to clear the roadway, but it won't help me with the crossmember.
The most up-to-date scheme that I am considering right now is running a piece of 1X3 steel tube alongside the frame rails to help strengthen them, and to help support the suspension towers that currently sit on the soon to be missing cross member. Then using a piece of 2X3 square steel tubing to place a new cross member slightly ahead of the righthand jack handle, below the steering rack.

Does this seem like it should be strong enough to support the car or do I need to consider something radical like using the engine itself as a sort of 'Keystone' to keep the towers from folding in?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:22 pm

I don't think moving the crossmember is a great idea. I'm sure it's there because it sits between the shock towers and offers the best placement of structural rigidity. Why can't you use a rear sump on this setup? My only concern with a rear sump pan would be making sure it cleared the flywheel and such.

Honestly I think that a naturally aspirated 2.0L or 2.4L DOHC motor would be great in that car. You think 300hp is going to be too much? A car that was designed for 70hp may need some more structural reinforcement to take the extra power. You should be able to get 175+ hp out of a solid NA build and you won't face the weight penalty of a turbo, intercooler, and such.

Here I am giving someone advice to lower their power goals when I plan to put 300+ hp in a 2200lb car that's 35+ years old and had a 70hp engine when new. Well, I guess I'm a hippocrate.

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:54 am

In the first incarnation of this build, I intend to run the stock rear end (which is certainly not strong enough) for a summer while I sort out the front end problems. I shouldn't have too much trouble because with the stock rear comes stock skinny little tires so I will never get enough traction to break/bend frame or suspension. When I attack the rear suspension I will likely cage the car with an 8 point cage. That will help a lot with the structural stability of the frame, but won't help much with the front susp.

Here is a picture of what I am proposing to to as a replacement cross member.

The spring towers will tie down to where the diagonal braces meet the 1X3 running alongside the framerails.

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:05 am

jeffball610 wrote:You think 300hp is going to be too much?

Um ya, that's kind of the point.

I used to have a big 4X4 (or is that $x$?) and I guess I am still stuck in that 'go big or go home' mentality. It's very important to me that when it's all done, NO ONE passes me without my permission. That includes Vipers, Corvettes, Mustangs and F-14 Tomcat's.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:32 am

it would be an all round better solution to run a dry sump oil pump and eliminate the oil pan sump

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:52 pm

Unless my measurements are out, the bottom surface of the block is going to be below the upper edge of the frame. That is to say, the block isn't going to clear the cross member either. I'm not sure how 'dry' I can make a sump but unless the sump is negative inches, i don't think it will clear.

I'm waiting for a friend of mine to come by and give me a hand putting the hood back on so I can get some more accurate measurements on exactly how much room I have above the frame to the underside of the hood.

I like to measure three or four times before I cut.
I might also mention that this car only weighs 850 Kg soaking wet so the torsional forces shouldn't be as bad as say a 2200Lb car.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:29 pm

itis also to your advantage to 'clock' the engine to the passenger side as the engine was intended in the Mits, you might gai 2 or 3 inches

but if your going to lower the C/G fo handling, you might as well lowe the engine

the other thing you may try is using a front and rear motor plate that uses the engine as a frame member, in other words, use the engine block as part of the frame and allow the suspension inputs to be absorbed on both sides of the engine block itself

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:13 pm

Center of gravity has nothing to do with it. It's all about clearing the hood.

I like the idea about using motor plates to tie the frame together. What sort of material should I use for that? Will the thicker plate put too much space between the block and bellhousing or do I need shims somewhere else as well for things to line up properly?

This would also mean no rubber engine mounts wouldn't it? How much vibration do these motors have in them to transfer to my rump? I am no stranger to riding an out of tune motorcycle so a little vibration doesn't concern me much but if it shakes my car apart I wouldn't want to do that.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:29 pm

take a look at the front steering Toyota/Datsun/ Mazda pick up truck with torque arm suspension you might be able to section the whole front frame rail into the front end

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:54 pm

A quick look at the front of the 4G63 shows no place to run a traditional engine plate. However, if you used the stock location for the FWD motor mount (shock tower location) you might be able to make something work there.

I still don't think a traditional dry sump on the 4G63 is practical for most of us. You could probably run an external reservoir and just use the stock oil pump pickup to draw oil from the reservoir. The issue with that would be mounting it low enough to gravity drain the oil into. But you could put it anywhere you wanted and save a few inches from not using the front sump pan. Not much though.

I'm still confused on the crossmember idea. The way the drawing show it, you can't run the front sump pan. If you do the same thing in the opposite direction, you could likely use the stock pan. You may need to notch or move the stock crossmember, but it should work.

I guess I just lucked out with my project and everything seems to fall together. Reverse my stock crossmember and use the stock mounts, make a custom trans mount that bolts in the stock location, flip the stock intake manifold, run 4 piston brakes and a bullet proof rear end with CV axles. Very little "precision" work is going into my car. Hope my luck holds out and I can get this thing on the road before gasoline gets outlawed.

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:03 pm

The drawn picture shows the new cross member in red and the old cross member is still in place to show how far forward the new stuff is in relation.
In my minds eye the only cross member remaining when I put the engine in will be the red one.

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:52 pm

Still measuring and still scratching my head.
I have a few questions now though.
Can I buy an intake manifold flange to build an intake, or do I need to make that part too? Ditto on the inlet flange.
What's up with that damn oil filter housing? It's gotta go. Is there an easy solution to shaving that thing off of the side? Maybe it could be cut off and oil lines fitted to run oil elsewhere to be filtered? Maybe someone already invented this particular 'wheel'.
Can I simply spin my turbo 180 so that it exhausts rearward or do I need to get fancy there too? Obviously oil lines will need to be made, but do I need to fab a exhaust manifold too?

I may be able to remove the cross member, or I may be able to hack the firewall and set it down behind the member. But what ever I do, if I want to avoid the ugly hood scoop, I must relocate that oil filter and housing.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri May 01, 2009 8:10 am

have another beer, chase some wemen and sell the car, it aint gonna work, its too much trouble, let it gooooooooooooooooo

evilhorde · Post by **evilhorde** » Fri May 01, 2009 9:04 am

Bill Hincher wrote:have another beer, chase some wemen and sell the car, it aint gonna work, its too much trouble, let it gooooooooooooooooo

I'll wager you heard that a lot when you first said that you were going to match a rwd toyota trans to a fwd mitsubishi engine.
If I build an intake and spin the turbo then the cross member can stay as is, but the oil filter housing is going to be trouble either way. Maybe I can cut it flush with the block, weld on plates to cover the holes and tap them with a fitting to relocate the filter. Is there something else going on with that housing that I should know about? is the pump integral with that piece or is it simply a large piece to attach the filter to?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri May 01, 2009 9:39 am

If I build an intake and spin the turbo then the cross member can stay as is, but the oil filter housing is going to be trouble either way. Maybe I can cut it flush with the block, weld on plates to cover the holes and tap them with a fitting to relocate the filter. Is there something else going on with that housing that I should know about? is the pump integral with that piece or is it simply a large piece to attach the filter to?

the oil pump is driven by the timing belt and is located on the opposite side of the engine, adding a plate with fittings should be no problem, the just add a remote oil filter along with an oil cooler

i can help you with remodeling the hood too, I build them on anenglish wheel