changing the cooling system to front exit

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 9:21 am

this is for the new guys,
we all got together on the front outlet some time ago but the pic's got lost in the mix of things so this is a repost of some old material.
This schematic shows how to use 'Burnellis principles' of flow by restricting coolant holes, what his laws says is that when you retrict the hole, you gain speed, like putting your thumb over the end of a garden hose to accelerate the water flow. The original head gasket had restricted holes at the front of the engine, which accelerated the coolant backwards towards the original thermostate in the rear of the engine, you must change the flow to move the coolant to the front of the engine to use the front coolant exit

This is the original headgasket design and you can clearly see how to change coolant flow from back to front

the way you close off the front coolant exit is by tapping the holes in the cylinder head and installing allen screws

Now for you guys who want to do a little more and clean up the engine bay, this is a front outlet with a rear mounted thermostate on the water pump. This has major advantages to cooling your engine with less effort for the cooling system
Using a dual staged thermostate you can mount it at the inlet of the water pump and that allows more time for the coolant to stay in the radiator ( more efficiant cooling) plus it creates a 'dynamic' thermostate thatreacts to differnt cooling requirements as the engine changes temperature, instead of a more 'static' system with the front mounted thermostate

Cheaptalon · Post by **Cheaptalon** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:49 pm

Bill, have you actually tested this, or is it all just theory and speculation?

cali · Post by **cali** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:54 pm

good info!

so you only open up ONE hole in the back of the head? or both?

do you know what size allen screws we can use to block off the front?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:19 am

its all tested and proven reliable.
you open a second hole in the rear of the head but be careful to aviod the EGR passage, leave the existing rear hole alone
I think the allen screws were 1/4 inch

Cheaptalon · Post by **Cheaptalon** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:18 am

Good info. I wonder why more people don't go this route. Is there anyone on the board currently running their cooling system this way?

cali · Post by **cali** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:35 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:its all tested and proven reliable.
you open a second hole in the rear of the head but be careful to aviod the EGR passage, leave the existing rear hole alone
I think the allen screws were 1/4 inch

this might be dumb but how deep into the head do you drill?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 6:57 pm

cali wrote:good info!

so you only open up ONE hole in the back of the head? or both?

do you know what size allen screws we can use to block off the front?

I just cut down some bolts, and added slots to install them with a screwdriver.

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 11:27 pm

yup, been using this set up since 2000

the engine was NA (4G61), but very likely the same for turbo'd set ups

here are pics of my set up before the major paint job...

here's the car after the paint job:

still a lot of downtime due to the 4G63T swap

cheers!

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:56 pm

When we do this conversion, will there still be some coolant flow to the rear of the head where the old thermostat housing was? I'm wondering because I can keep my old housing and just block off the outlet area so I can still run heater hoses to my heater core. The reason for my conversion would be to eliminate the long coolant hose from the rear of the head.

Is there still sufficient coolant flow to run the heater hoses and possibly keep the stock temp sensors and get an accurate reading?

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 6:23 pm

mine had no problems whatsoever

fan activates at the expected temp

gauge reads normal (almost middle of gauge)

no CEL for the coolant temp sensor

throttle body fast idle air valve functions (engine idles up) during cold starts

StellarDOHC · Post by **StellarDOHC** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 8:33 pm

Are u running a Jay Racing front exit kit, because with mine i found the waterpunp pulley got in the way of the thermostat housing, how did u get around it? I've heard there are smaller pulleys from other cars, but yours looks the same size as mine.

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:18 pm

no, mine's the stock

had a neck flanged at the outer end made

the neck slight essess upward to avoid any pulleys:

here's another view of an improved version of the neck...

HTH

StellarDOHC · Post by **StellarDOHC** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:17 pm

Wow that is a really nice piece. The jay racing piece uses the stock housing, but it sticks straight out. Thanks alot for showing me and im sure other people how u solved that problem.

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Tue Nov 11, 2008 10:24 pm

i'm also using the stock housing

i think the probable problem with the jay racing unit is that it sticks straight out and doesn't have enough flange-to-pulley clearance

prolly assumed that you won't use the power steering anymore

StellarDOHC · Post by **StellarDOHC** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 2:05 am

Yea thats the main problem, but in its defence it is a race piece and from a company that makes WP blockoff plates so WP pulleys and such were prolly not in the picture.

Yea i have no P/S my car has a manual rack. I also liked your header, my plan is to use a turbo manifold and make a flange to hook up a tailpipe.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:06 pm

gotta love a simple solution

can't tell from the pics, but did you move the trans., etc. forward to give room for the cas?

oh yeah, are you saying you did not "reverse the flow" of the coolant?

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Fri Nov 14, 2008 12:16 am

Burabuda wrote:gotta love a simple solution

can't tell from the pics, but did you move the trans., etc. forward to give room for the cas?

oh yeah, are you saying you did not "reverse the flow" of the coolant?

trans is in original position

firewall had to be hammered

i just followed the holes in the cyl head gasket (opened the trans side holes), compared it to the 4g32 head gasket, and blocked the small front (t/belt side) passages shown by bill

hth

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:15 pm

any developments on a kit? or was i dreaming?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:19 am

there was no kit, this was just an explination of how to make the front outlet work properly

poorboyj · Post by **poorboyj** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:18 pm

Guys,
This is Jay from Jay Racing. I designed/built the first front water outlet fitting about 4 years ago now. This worked on my Mighty Max and cleared the pulley okay. Does someone have a picture of the clearance issue with our piece? We're just about to make up another batch of these and I can make the appropriate changes to make this work for more applications.

Some of our other coolant fittings may help you guys as well.

Thank you,
Jay White
Jay Racing
937 248 7846

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:17 pm

Thanks Jay now lets get this boy some pics his work is top notch cant wait to see the revised water neck

ixnay · Post by **ixnay** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:52 am

i bought one of your fittings jay and had to extend it by 100mm to clear the pulleys to fit on the 4g63

stealthx32 · Post by **stealthx32** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:12 am

Is there a pulley we can use so it uses the OEM power steering pulley? MR2 electric power steering pumps aren't too expensive...and then you can mount it wherever you want.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 11:53 am

uh, i think it was jay's front outlet kit that i was thinking of
anyway, now that i see it, it won't work for me as i need an angled up and slightly to the left adapter like allan's:

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 1:17 pm

dont get me started >;o)

IDriftNaked · Post by **IDriftNaked** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 2:10 pm

i had clearance issues too, i ended up having to use a smaller 2gen wp pulley that sat behind the bigger w/p pulley

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 7:28 pm

IDriftNaked wrote:i had clearance issues too, i ended up having to use a smaller 2gen wp pulley that sat behind the bigger w/p pulley

did you use jay's kit or did you make your own? if it's your own, please let's see some pics. never enough pics!

IDriftNaked · Post by **IDriftNaked** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:05 pm

i used jays kit, heres the link of what i did to make it work
http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic ... 28cbb70b3c

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:14 pm

IDriftNaked wrote:i used jays kit, heres the link of what i did to make it work
http://projectzerog.com/forum/viewtopic ... 28cbb70b3c

ok, so you already bought jay's outlet, found it didn't work, and made some mods to fix that

i think i'll make up my own like allan's, and see where that leads
hey allan, so your design had no issues with the pulley's?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:52 pm

So which water pump setup is causing issues? Are you using the DSM water pump or the RWD water pump? I would guess that's where the clearance issues are at. I might play with this a little and see what it looks like on my motor. I'm running a 7-bolt which eliminates the possibility to run a RWD water pump.

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:15 am

i bought the jay racing kit for my 7 bolt but it was going to interfere with the waterpump pullys so im in the middle of making an aluminum low profile upper thermostate housing tube that comes from the back of the head and under the intake which is going to use the stock themostate bolted o the end of it using the jay racing pieces. my setup is using the frw waterpump, i made the lower rad hose pipe come out the back so in the future i wont have to modify the waterpump in case of replacement. quicker repair and replacement with very little down time= more fun driving.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:00 pm

turbostellar wrote:i bought the jay racing kit for my 7 bolt but it was going to interfere with the waterpump pullys so im in the middle of making an aluminum low profile upper thermostate housing tube that comes from the back of the head and under the intake which is going to use the stock themostate bolted o the end of it using the jay racing pieces. my setup is using the frw waterpump, i made the lower rad hose pipe come out the back so in the future i wont have to modify the waterpump in case of replacement. quicker repair and replacement with very little down time= more fun driving.

pics!

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:07 pm

im still building the piece, hard to finish because the car is outside and its friggin -20, when i get a chance i will post them up

cali · Post by **cali** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:14 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:
the way you close off the front coolant exit is by tapping the holes in the cylinder head and installing allen screws

I am about to install the head on my block but was wondering what the final word was with the allen screws. drill a small hole in each of the front allen screws or completely block them off?

i already drilled the head and punched out the headgasket.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:54 pm

Mainstream ( Kane) published some pics of a truck block that had a front outlet coming out of the intake manifold just behind #1 cylinder and he showed no holes at all in the front of #1 cylinder head
If you look behind the water pump, there are 2 feeder holes behind the pump and the front of #1 cylinder gets fresh coolant on both sides, I believe no holes at all would be correct

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:36 pm

Burabuda wrote: i think i'll make up my own like allan's, and see where that leads
hey allan, so your design had no issues with the pulley's?

no it didn't

i don't know if the pic below helps, but it sits approx 15mm above the bigger WP pulley, even has room to change belts

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:47 am

Has anyone done this with a 2G head? I was just looking at my 2G head and it seems to already have the rear coolant hole. I will try and post pics later today.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:38 am

allan, you moved the engine forward about 1" or?
and you're using the galant 5spd?

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:28 pm

Burabuda wrote:allan, you moved the engine forward about 1" or?
and you're using the galant 5spd?

i did not move the engine forward, but i had to reshape the firewall to make space for the CAS.

basically i mounted the transmission in its proper mounts to the body, and worked my way from there.

yes, i'm using a small housing 5speed.

HTH

AllanL · Post by **AllanL** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:40 am

i took some pix over the weekend so you can imagine how the housing exit flange esses upward...sorry for the rust everywhere

front view of the cyl. head exit (notice the t/belt cover bolt hole adjacent to the exit... this bolt hole is where the thermo housing flange and housing back side entry port should be 'aimed' for it to avoid hitting any pulleys or belts):

here're some pix if only a straight pipe is used:

if you decide to use the DOHC 4G63 (1G or 2G) water pump, the coolant bypass pipe can be made this way. with this set up, it will avoid hitting the stock alternator location. coupled with the top mount turbo in another thread, it will work. notice that the water pump freeze plug and the bypass pipe outlet are parallel (point in the same direction)

hth

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:08 pm

ok, so using that elbow on the h20 pump seems a good way to avoid problems arising from using the rwd pump ...

can you please take a front pic with the th housing adapter installed? (and also a side shot?)

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:47 pm

my attempt at this cooling problem:

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:23 pm

interesting setup, are you using your heater core? you could probably use the rear exit on the head and route it to the inlet of the heater core and run the outlet from the heater core to the front of the head to the connection at the t housing. i made the waterpump elbow on my setup, a little different then that but you can see it on my cardomain page. i wanted it to be easy to replace the alt or the wpump

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Feb 26, 2009 10:01 pm

turbostellar wrote:interesting setup, are you using your heater core? you could probably use the rear exit on the head and route it to the inlet of the heater core and run the outlet from the heater core to the front of the head to the connection at the t housing. i made the waterpump elbow on my setup, a little different then that but you can see it on my cardomain page. i wanted it to be easy to replace the alt or the wpump

thats an interesting idea- per your idea, you could pretty much eliminate the waterpipe altogether. we'll see what i end up deeming a "good" setup- i just wanted a bit of relief for the system for now...

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:24 pm

so i was toying with different ideas, and think ive come up with another one i wanted to run by you guys. im currently running a stock MM waterpump and waterpipe. i didnt like that there wasnt any (convenient) place to take off for the turbo coolant line, and it also runs right through where the side motor mount bolts to the block. this normally wouldnt matter, as we obviously dont need that mount, but im trying to figure out some way to run powersteering still.

but if i went with the 4G63 waterpump, and modified the waterpipe, i think i could still run the stock MM lower radiator hose, tie into the turbo with an AN line, and hook into the heater core just like the MM line does. the part im worried about is if there is enough restriction flowing into the engine to force enough coolant down the waterpipe and into the turbo/heater core. what do you guys think? here's a pic of how i was thinking about modifying the 4G63 waterpipe:

http://www.iowaautoforums.com/download/ ... &mode=view

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 12:08 pm

Does anyone know if the 2G head has the same coolant flow path as the 1G head. The reason I ask is because I want to convert a 2G head to have front coolant exit for RWD configuration. I can only find info on how to convert a 1G head.
Any insight is appreciated thanks in advance.

Matt

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:02 pm

It does have the same frost plug at the front of the 2nd gen head. i bought a jay racing t housing and it was giving me interferance issues with the stock waterpump so i decided to go a different route. but it can be tweeked to work if you so do wish. has to go on an upward angle to avoid the pullies.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:33 pm

anybody got a scrap second gen head for sale?

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Mon Mar 16, 2009 10:40 pm

If i bust up my head you will be the first to know.

stagen · Post by **stagen** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:09 pm

My buddy actually has a junk 2g head if your really interested. Just let me know.
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changing the cooling system to front exit

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