Project Lo-Buck 4g63 Starion

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:50 am

Hello,

I am picking up a 87 Starion TSi tommorow with intention of doing a 4g63T swap. The intention is to build a 5-sp street legal car that can be auto-x'd on the weekend on the lowest possible budget, and least amount of labor possible. I plan on keeping a log of $ costs, DIY hours of labor, and custom part list/sources.

I am a lot more familiar with 6g72TT than the 4g engines, so that said, I would like to use a narrow block out of a 1g DSM, along with all the electrical stuff to keep things simple and easy to source from a 1G DSM.

I know there are options for matting a stock Starion tranny to the wideblock, but is there an adapter plate, or a way to matte a 4g63 narrow block to stock Starion tranny? If so, any idea on what needs to be done?

If not, would Bill H be able to make an adapter plate to make this work?

Thanks, TK

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 5:20 pm

just out of curiousity, were you ever on a forum called crunderground?

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 6:05 pm

Gentleman Rogue wrote:just out of curiousity, were you ever on a forum called crunderground?

Nope!

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:09 pm

The obsolute cheapers way to do such conversion, is to use a narrow-block tranny (from a truck) with Starion shifter extention. But that isn't the strongest tranny... So you will have to keep your 4G63 down to under 300hp or so. And isn't easy to do

.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 4:05 pm

I have seen way too many failed 4G63 "rebild jobs"... unless I know and trust the builder AND the machine shop that does the machining. I would take a 100k miles "junk yard motor" over some random rebuilt motor.

My point, do not rebuild 4G63T, unless it needs it! It is hard to build it better than the factory...

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:17 pm

All,

thanks for the input, i appreciate the discussion.

At this point, my question is, what is stopping me from matting a 4g63T (narrow) to the stock starion tranny?

I like the idea of simplicity and only replacing the weak link (G54 in this case), with a bulletproof 4g63. I dont see how making an adapter plate for 4g63/stock tranny is any different than making an adapter plate for anything else.

From future sourcing standpoint (when things break down), this would give you two sources for parts (1.Stock Quest, 2.Stock DSM), and ease of interchangibility - no swapping of end cases and shifters, no worries with interchangibility of parts between wide/narrow blocks, etc.

Again, thanks for getting involved, lets keep the discussion going.

Cheers

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:51 pm

smog wrote:I look at it this way. Why the hell would you bother swapping in a 4g if you are going to use a truck tranny. You can put out more power off a g54b turbo and a starion transmission than you will off a truck transmission. Some things in my opinion you just have to spend money on.

replacing the weak link. The g54b isnt a weak link.. Not doing any maintenance on them makes them one. The main reason I see going 4g63 is to get mpi. Everyone likes to dog a g54b that reads what fanboys say, butt hepeurto ricans have proved quite a few times they are quite a engine.

The end fact is it will cost you more money with a 4g63 to make the same hp and less torque as a tbi g54b starion can make.

Dont get me wrong, I am one cheap ass son of a bitch, if I can save a few bucks I will, but I cant even doing a swap for even close to the price of what I can do with a g54b.

I never said I wanted to use a truck tranny, I want to use a stock Starion tranny and a DSM motor. No fanboy here, just looking to make right choices, and G54B is not one of them, at least not for me. Fact is, the car I bought runs and has a good engine with freshly rebuit head, but I just dont care to go that route.

My goal is not to build a fast Starion, i'm looking for "relatively" simple swap with aftermarket support and availability of parts.

Finally, i never said I am looking to do this cheap, just trying to do it on a lowest budget possible.

So the question is, why hasn't anyone bolted a narrow 4g to a stock tranny?

Again, not trying to be rude, just clarifying!

Thanks

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:19 pm

Daviticus wrote:Are you saying I should just toss all the DOHC stuff onto the SOHC block, without making sure all specs are within tolerances, or replace bearings and other wear items while I'm in there?

How did you possibly got this from what I said?

I said 4G63T that means a turbo/DOHC motor... Do not mess with it if it does not need it! And by not messing with it, I am talking about the bottom end (aside from balance shaft...), heads can be and should be reuild.

hschwartz3 · Post by **hschwartz3** » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:22 pm

A "narrow" block 4g will not bolt to the U.S. starion transmission. This is because the KM132 starion transmission is a wideblock transmission. You'll have to find a wideblock 4g to use the starion transmission or find a narrow block transmission to work with your narrow 4g63. This is where the truck transmission discuission comes into play. Hope this helps, good luck.

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:34 pm

smog wrote:you need to read this.

http://www.projectzerog.com/transmissions.shtml

Probabyl browse the entire engine tech section dj put up.
low budget=cheap

I did read pretty much the whole site before posting on here, and am fully aware of W series, truck, r154, and all the other options. I just do not understand why there is no adapter to fit a narrow 4g to the stock tranny?

Can you think of any good reasons?

My guess is, anyone that is willing to spend the money getting a 4g63 in the car is willing to pay the $ to get a beefier tranny, or will go the cheapest route possible and bolt it to a truck tranny.

Am i going to be the first person on this site to ask Bill to make an adapter for 4g narrow to stock tranny?

Thanks

abstract · Post by **abstract** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:36 pm

The 4G63 engines are one of the most strongest and cheapest engines to build in the import seen. Rebuilding these engines are fairly easy as well. As far as the narrow 4g63 to a wide tranny, there would be a alignment issue even in trying to fab up a adapter plate. I know bill has already looked at this. If the wide tranny had two castings than it would be possible to make a bell housing to adapt it, but its not. By all means rebuild a engine before choosing a junk yard engine and choose a truck or toyota tranny.

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 7:52 pm

abstract wrote:The 4G63 engines are one of the most strongest and cheapest engines to build in the import seen. Rebuilding these engines are fairly easy as well. As far as the narrow 4g63 to a wide tranny, there would be a alignment issue even in trying to fab up a adapter plate. I know bill has already looked at this. If the wide tranny had two castings than it would be possible to make a bell housing to adapt it, but its not. By all means rebuild a engine before choosing a junk yard engine and choose a truck or toyota tranny.

Ok, that makes sense, I guess I am surprised a narrow block would not fit the wide tranny with an adapter, yet a glide can be made to fit with the narrow block. If Bill has tried this and saig no go, I guess it just wont work.

I will probably be picking up an Auto AWD 1g DSM (running car) this weekend, is there any issues using an auto harness for the swap? I know there will be a few connectors that won't be used for the auto tranny, but other than that, am I ok?

Thanks again, TK

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:21 pm

you should be good to go with that

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:22 pm

you should be good to go with that

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:31 pm

turbostellar wrote:you should be good to go with that

Cool, thanks for the quick reply, i just wish i could find a way to bolt it to the stock tranny...lol

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:36 pm

tvr-4 wrote:
turbostellar wrote:you should be good to go with that
Cool, thanks for the quick reply, i just wish i could find a way to bolt it to the stock tranny...lol

use super glue and duct tape haha, but seriously there are quite a few options out there but im sure you will figure out something

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 3:06 pm

I started and pulled the rig in the garage today, kind of makes me want to fix the small stuff and drive it till I have all the parts for the swap.....

abstract · Post by **abstract** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:50 pm

My friend just got a custom bellhousing made for his 2JZ from this one local shop, I will check with them for you to see they would be interested in fabricating a plate for you. I should have a starion tranny laying around the shop and a narrow block

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 1:58 am

abstract wrote:My friend just got a custom bellhousing made for his 2JZ from this one local shop, I will check with them for you to see they would be interested in fabricating a plate for you. I should have a starion tranny laying around the shop and a narrow block

Awesome, thanks offering help, please keep me posted on the outcome!

Daviticus,

Appreciate you staying on-board with this, thanks!!

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:30 am

A typical tranny adaptor plate will cost you $300-$500. Plus, you will have to figure out clutch and starter (since plate will add extra space). What is the point of investing all that effort into a crappy tranny?

If you are going to go through the trouble of adapting a tranny, get something good!

I actually think that using a truck tranny is a good idea! It gives you an opportunity to get your project on the road without having to worry about a tranny. Then, you can work on the tranny selection at a later date.

That is why I am sticking with the 88 Starion tranny w/truck bell housing, for now. Later on, I am hoping that Bill will done with his T-56 kit

As for rebuilding 4G63s, on the surface, it seems like a very easy engine to rebuild and it is once you really figure it out. But I have seen some really good V8 machine shops mess them up, pretty badly!

tvr-4 · Post by **tvr-4** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:16 pm

GRNDSM wrote:A typical tranny adaptor plate will cost you $300-$500. Plus, you will have to figure out clutch and starter (since plate will add extra space). What is the point of investing all that effort into a crappy tranny?

If you are going to go through the trouble of adapting a tranny, get something good!

I actually think that using a truck tranny is a good idea! It gives you an opportunity to get your project on the road without having to worry about a tranny. Then, you can work on the tranny selection at a later date.

That is why I am sticking with the 88 Starion tranny w/truck bell housing, for now. Later on, I am hoping that Bill will done with his T-56 kit

As for rebuilding 4G63s, on the surface, it seems like a very easy engine to rebuild and it is once you really figure it out. But I have seen some really good V8 machine shops mess them up, pretty badly!

What's crappy about the stock tranny?

Clutch and starter are the only things that do worry me, but if those can be worked out, I'd rather use the stock tranny and pay for the plate than mess with adapting a truck tranny.

What do you mean by 88 starion tranny with truck bell?

As far as the 4g63, im not too worried about it.

I spent about an hour and a half with the car today:

1) Cruise control gone
2) Emissions equipment/vac lines reduced

How do i post a pic off of my desktop?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:51 pm

tvr-4 wrote:
What's crappy about the stock tranny?

It isn't very strong. 350ft*lbs of torque is about as much as they can take. And being designed for a low revving 2.6 engines, Starion trannies do not like to shift at high RPMs.

Also, to have a fighting chance get the 88/89 tranny, they are stronger and have better synchros than 86/87 trannies.

Of course, I can't speak from my personal experience my car is not yet done all of my research yeilded this information.

tvr-4 wrote:
What do you mean by 88 starion tranny with truck bell?

Erik Plebany, the first person to put 4G63 into a Starion, perfected a hybrid tranny: Starion gear set with Mighty Max/D50 bell housing section.

Erik told me what I needed and I attempted to put the two trannies together. I failed...

So I mailed my mess to Erik and put them together for me.

Back in 01, this was the best and easieset way to put the 4G63 in RWD configuration.

A few people have done toyota tranny adaptor plates, but no one to my knowledge, has ever adapted a 4G63 to a Starion tranny. BECAUSE IT ISN'T worth it!