Elmer Fudd...on da hunt.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:28 pm

Where's dat rabbit?

I think I'm hyjacking another thread.

Where would I find a DOHC 4G63 engines?

As in: What year/make/model would LIKELY have that engine?

Was it MORE OFTEN seen in AWD DSMs? Or ONLY in AWD DSMs?

Is there a character in the VIN # I should be looking at?

And...

Did a 2.4L engine ALSO have DOHC engines?

If it AIN'T DOHC....4 valve per cylinder engines, I might as well covert to V8s.

I was TROLLING 78-83 Challangers/Sopporos yesterday (2 in inventory) looking for manual windows to convert to. SCORE!

However....NO SCORE.

The parts didn't weigh any less than POWER WINDOWS.

But...there is more than one-way to skin a FAT RABBIT!

30lbs of FAT is easy enough to remove!

Soooo, can you answer those questions?

hschwartz3 · Post by **hschwartz3** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:35 pm

Dang, I just posted this in the other thread you hijacked:

Cut and paste

Keep in mind after 1992.5 the 4g63 narrow block were 7 bolt motors. Meaning the six bolt starion flywheel will not bolt to the crank. If you were looking for a factory turbocharged 4G63 I'd be on the lookout for a 1989.5-1993.5 Mitsubushi Eclipse, Eagle Talon, Plymouth Laser. It could be front wheel drive or AWD I just wouldn't pass em' up in the u pick it yard. Like you said it's pretty easy to tell between SOHC vs. DOHC. Pop hood...Nope. There are other models, like the Galant VR4, that had the 4G63T but, I have no info on them. I try to keep stuff as simple as possible and those cars are pretty rare in my neck of the woods so I don't even spend time looking for them. I may have passed a few up a not even known it.

Also the SOHC to DOHC swap seems fairly simple. DJ's laid it all out for us. About the only advantages for finding a turbocharged narrow block engine is for the oil squirters and reinforced main caps. But even those can be bought and added.

later

hschwartz3 · Post by **hschwartz3** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:59 pm

http://car-part.com/ Says 1990-1992.5 Mitsubushi Eclipse, Plymouth Laser, Eagle Talon 2.0 with turbo => VIN U 8th digit.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:21 pm

I am assuming that you guys KNOW that a G54B n/a vs a G54B turbocharged engine used:

1. differant block (piston squirters)
2. differant rods (better steel)
3. differant pistons (low compression, thicker tops)
4. differant wrist pins (thicker walls)
5. differant cranks (forged steel & hardend)
6. differant oil pumps (bottom feeder & Aluminum)
7. differant heads (harder Aluminum)
8. camshafts (open to debate)

I would not call those engines to be "interchanageable" nor MOST of the parts.

Lacking enough knowledge about the SOHC vs DOHC engines:

Are the BOTTOM ENDS (parts listed above) DIFFERANT TOO?

Example,

Suppose, I buy a SOHC n/a 4G63 Mighty Max engine and a DOHC head, is that a DIRECT replacement head? Or would I be building a disaster?

I'm thinking...maybe I should go buy a turn-key, fugly, DOHC Evolution (those are all turbocharged engines, right?) or a DOHC turbocharged Eclipse (if I can find one

) and gut it.

Pull-apart-yards are frequently already gutted before they show up. I have found one so far (DOHC) but the *HEAD* was missing one cam (shows damage to cam bearings) and the "towers" are gone. Bottom end could be NON SERVICEABLE.

= waste of time to pull it.

Btw...thanks for the links!

And, I didn't KNOW that Starquest DID have manual windows at all.

My bad for not investigating that notion. (I did ask for the 83 Conquest/Starion paper catalog but they duplicated the 83 Challangers/Sopporo by mistake)

I did a partial-gut of a 83 Starion (in-da-field) and noted the LIGHTER WEIGHT of DASHBOARD RELATED parts while removing the MANUAL A/C-HEATER control panel and ALL associated parts. NO SIDE IMPACT (doubled lower steel support) OR KNEE PROTECTION AT ALL (weigh your glove box door)

= MORE EXCESS WEIGHT REMOVED!! (same thru 86 models)

On later year cars (87-89)....Mitsu STILL installed SEATBELT HARDWARE (inside the doors) that was NEVER USED.

hschwartz3 · Post by **hschwartz3** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:52 pm

Ya, your right the internal pieces parts would be different, I don't know what I was thinking. I guess I was focused on the block.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:54 pm

It's all good and under control...now.

My investigation lead me to a 24 year old, 'young gun' that rattled-off a ton of GOOD information.

"That engine only came in a Spyder...blah blah blah.

(I think I asked about the 2.4L)

One of his pals had a pipe-line into the local Super-u-pull-it yards so this guy was grabbing those COMPLETE, VIRGIN engines immediately. Need to go view one tomorrow. (2.0L DOHC factory Turboed

Another associate of his had the 3rd fastest, 1st generation that did 7.80s et. His name is Wesly Hess and is a Mitsu nut and lives here, in Albuquerque.

However, Wesly and one of his mechanics were test driving a hot-rod Mustang, he lost control of the car.....and Wesly died on Dec 20 2008 and his mechanic is in-traction at the hospital. It ain't looking good for that poor kid.

Wesly's reputation maybe viewed here at ABQ-DSM.COM (so Josh tells me)

Wesly is about 30 years old, and I gather the parents want the Mitsu performance cars and parts to be sold off.

I also talked to a few other young guys about Mitsu products and they warned me...."THERE ARE A BUNCH OF MITSU AUTO CON-ARTIST OUT THERE!"

This story got veryyyyy interesting when it was explained to me.

I thought it was kinda weird (two weeks ago) when I passed two 1st gen, white DSMs with body kits...identicle cars but one was a "beater", barely doing the 75mph speed limit on I-25 north bound, 20 miles south of Albuquerque....with temporary plates. 10 pm at night.

I was a witness to a SCAM/ROBBERY that was about to take place.

They take a pic of a nice DSM, offer it at $2,000, when the buyer shows up with the CASH...he points to the BEATER (not the nice car) and the argument arrives.

They INSISTED of knowing...."HOW MUCH CASH DO YOU HAVE NOW?"

The buyer was not an idiot...he KNEW he was about to be ROBBED!

That BEATER...was stuck in 3rd gear = that is WHY he had a hard time to make 75mph on I-25.

The seller thought he could get-away pulling this SCAM/ROBBERY in a differant town.

And...stealing a car in the state of New Mexico,

A SLAP-ON-DA-WRIST!

Like 9 months in jail!

I am really having second thoughts about DSM ideas.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:19 am

"Piston squirters, and having them, are an argument in and of themselves. I opt to not have them, personally"

Understood, Dav.

Understand this:
As HOT as engine oil is...it COOLS the TOP of the piston UNDER BOOST!
It's a DURABILITY THING.

How does it create a problem?

YOU....create the problem by not understanding, HIGH OIL PRESSURE OPENS THE SQUIRTERS AT 30psi OIL PRESSURE.

Shimming the oil pump relief valve to make MORE pressure is not a good idea....cause NOW the crank isn't getting enough oil 24-7.

CHECK & BALANCE.

Knock-on-wood....I haven't YET, lost a performance engines that I have HAND-BUILT.

I WANT oil squirters. I want COOLER pistons. I DO NOT WANT DETONATION caused by WHITE-HOT PISTONS.

citrus3000psi · Post by **citrus3000psi** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:56 pm

Professor Quest wrote:
I WANT oil squirters. I want COOLER pistons. I DO NOT WANT DETONATION caused by WHITE-HOT PISTONS.

Most people that upgrade to forged internals block off the squirters.

They say the fordged parts can handle the heat and since Heat = Power then that makes sense why they do it.

If your rely on oil squirters to stop detonation, then you're going to have a problem anyways.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:51 pm

It is very common to hear about misguided ideas.

Maybe you need to study:
In-audible detonation
Pre-detonation
detonation
flash-points
and about a dozen other studies the firmly suggest.....COOL YOUR PISTONS VIA SQUIRTERS!

Guys that have NEVER used a Acetylene & Oxygen TORCH have NO CLUE of what goes on inside a combustion chamber.

In the MARINE WORLD, we don't 'drop-da-hammer' for a 1/4 mile blast.
WFO for mile after mile...and return to the marina with a smile on our faces.

Build it RIGHT....build it ONCE!

(does not apply to parking-lot queens or show cars)

And according to Josh, he states the 2.0 & 2.4s are ALSO notorious for blown head gaskets....too.

How many of you guys KNOW what temp Aluminum starts to MELT AT?

citrus3000psi · Post by **citrus3000psi** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 2:21 pm

Professor Quest wrote:It is very common to hear about misguided ideas.

Maybe you need to study:
In-audible detonation
Pre-detonation
detonation
flash-points
and about a dozen other studies the firmly suggest.....COOL YOUR PISTONS VIA SQUIRTERS!

Guys that have NEVER used a Acetylene & Oxygen TORCH have NO CLUE of what goes on inside a combustion chamber.

In the MARINE WORLD, we don't 'drop-da-hammer' for a 1/4 mile blast.
WFO for mile after mile...and return to the marina with a smile on our faces.

Build it RIGHT....build it ONCE! (does not apply to parking-lot queens or show cars)

And according to Josh, he states the 2.0 & 2.4s are ALSO notorious for blown head gaskets....too.

How many of you guys KNOW what temp Aluminum starts to MELT AT?

Ahh profressor, I have a mechanical egineering degree so we can have a little discussion.

First off, I tottally agree with you in using oil squirters, I have them on my 4g63 and on my ITR that I road race. I beat the shit out of my ITR, have tracked over 20 track events with and it keeps on ticking with just basic maintenance. So when I think of reliability I think of this.

Build it right? So what are you trying to build? A road course machine? Or just a weekend driver? I'm saying unless your doing some serious road racing squirters aren't going to make it or break it.

But I'm going to say it again. Heat = Power, Power = Heat

There are many blown gaskets on turbo 4gs because people keep running high boost. If you stay below 30psi you wont have any problems if you have a quality gasket. And a straight head and block.

aluminum if I remember correct its just shy 1000k?

And since were talking about what I need to study professor, its spelled different not differant.

NightlifeD50 · Post by **NightlifeD50** » Wed Jan 21, 2009 5:27 pm

and whats with the smiley faces everywhere?

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:23 am

spelling? Only one?

1000*F? Close. More like 1200*F.

Now...what is the typical temp of the COMBUSTION? (assuming correct A/F ratio, WFO)

"Ahh profressor, I have a mechanical egineering degree so we can have a little discussion."

Is that ego-nearing...or ENGINEering?

engineering
Entries 1 to 10 of 14.

engineering

2engineer (transitive verb)

biomedical engineering

chemical engineering

civil engineer

genetic engineering

geotechnical engineering

human engineering

industrial engineering

citrus3000psi · Post by **citrus3000psi** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:11 am

Professor Quest wrote: spelling? Only one?

1000*F? Close. More like 1200*F.

Now...what is the typical temp of the COMBUSTION? (assuming correct A/F ratio, WFO)

"Ahh profressor, I have a mechanical egineering degree so we can have a little discussion."

Is that ego-nearing...or ENGINEering?

engineering
Entries 1 to 10 of 14.

engineering

2engineer (transitive verb)

biomedical engineering

chemical engineering

civil engineer

genetic engineering

geotechnical engineering

human engineering

industrial engineering

I hope you know what kelvin means.

obviouslyI fat fingered engineering. you spelled different wrong 5 times in a row.

I have 0 ego, but im tired of you acting like you know everything and other people don't know shit. Each motor is different and your acting like you know whats perfect for the turbo 4g motor. Even though you just found out what car they came in. I know physics is physics, but real world uses still come into play, especially when it comes to these 4 cylinder 4g3s.

I didn't make the previous post to argue. You gave your opinion i gave mine. You must have taken it personally, becuase i didn't mean anything bad by it. But your response of telling me that i need to study, I kinda take offense. So the reason for these harsher replys. Lets just drop this subject.

And about oil squirters. If the block I have has them, then I would use them. If they doesn't then i wouldn't mess with it. Hundreds of people run with out them.

NightlifeD50 · Post by **NightlifeD50** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 10:46 am

I think the Professor needs to go back to school for his DSM diploma

K's dont look like F's, maybe kindergarten would be a good place to start.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:03 pm

That's some pretty good advice....for everybody.

I need to dawn my seeing glasses when I'm typing.

Kelvin is....ahhhh,

equal to 1/273.16 of the Kelvin scale temperature
of the triple point of water?

I don't think it matters how you define it...it's DAMN HOT!

Squirters cool the bottom side of the piston tops and that *IS* an asset.

Wrist pins are lubricated threw the piston oil rings (and the pistons got an upgrade in 88 G54Bs, see my topic on that) and splash of having squirters
is a by-product.

NightlifeD50 · Post by **NightlifeD50** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:39 pm

I've seen worse coming from NA kia motors

Is that from one of the engines you built professor?

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:58 pm

Ahhhh, no.

Engines that fail get dumped into my lamp to figure out WTF happened here.

Hey, last month I'm kicking thru the warehouse and I find a T-56 looking for a home. Obviously, I like this idea.

And I have said from the beginning...I don't know shit about the 4G63/4G64 engines.

But note this: I have said that 80% of what I have read from different sites is "misguided". Isn't that polite enough?

I asked a simple question: "what is the differance, 63 vs 64?" The answer was: "One is cast iron block, one is Aluminum block."

Glad I didn't BANK on that bit of info.

But, I did notice that some guys have said that: That link info (all info to me) is "NOT ABSOLUTE".

NightlifeD50 · Post by **NightlifeD50** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:03 pm

Knock-on-wood....I haven't YET, lost a performance engines that I have HAND-BUILT.

Ahhhh, no.

Engines that fail get dumped into my lamp to figure out WTF happened here.

If you dont know shit, why do you say they are misguided?

Maybe you are misguided, or just too stubborn to realize...

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:26 pm

I said..."I don't know shit about 4G63/4G64s", period. I have been building performance engines for over 40 years now.

Btw...why are you into cartoons?

NightlifeD50 · Post by **NightlifeD50** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:35 pm

Ill tell you only if you tell me why you're enamored with smiley faces

citrus3000psi · Post by **citrus3000psi** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:46 pm

Professor Quest wrote:
Btw...why are you into cartoons?

Michael Bay is into them.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:01 pm

PQ. There are lots of difference between DOHC and SOHC 4G6x motors. Small things like bridged main caps and stuff. There are also differences between 6 and 7 bolt motors. Differences for 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, and 2.4; big port, small port, high compression, low compression. Also, there are differences between turbo and non turbo.

The best way to take everything into consideration is to do a cost/benefit of each aspect and mix and match. There is a fair amount of mixing you can do to get a really nice final product that fits your needs.

There is no denying that oil squirters are great and add reliability. Unfortunately, things like oil squirters cannot be justified when the hundreds of dollars in parts and machine work could be put to better use in other areas. For example a new radiator, more efficient turbo, better plumbing... all things that will allow you to have a more reliable and clean final product.... more reliable than the marginal gains from oil squirters.

Its the forfeiture of these small percentage gains for larger gains elsewhere that make these swaps possible for us low budget builders.

NightlifeD50 · Post by **NightlifeD50** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:05 pm

What about engines that weren't turbo from factory?

Would you put oil squirters in a LS1 if you were prepping it for a turbo? would it really be worth it?

Seems like forged internals would be good enough, and im pretty sure there's quite a few turboed engines out there without oil squirters racing day in and day out.

oh and by the way, Optimus Prime is my hero, and I love cartoons, I could give you a list of all the cartoons I enjoy if you're interested

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:57 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:PQ. There are lots of difference between DOHC and SOHC 4G6x motors. Small things like bridged main caps and stuff. There are also differences between 6 and 7 bolt motors. Differences for 1.6, 1.8, 2.0, and 2.4; big port, small port, high compression, low compression. Also, there are differences between turbo and non turbo.

The best way to take everything into consideration is to do a cost/benefit of each aspect and mix and match. There is a fair amount of mixing you can do to get a really nice final product that fits your needs.

There is no denying that oil squirters are great and add reliability. Unfortunately, things like oil squirters cannot be justified when the hundreds of dollars in parts and machine work could be put to better use in other areas. For example a new radiator, more efficient turbo, better plumbing... all things that will allow you to have a more reliable and clean final product.... more reliable than the marginal gains from oil squirters.

Its the forfeiture of these small percentage gains for larger gains elsewhere that make these swaps possible for us low budget builders.

DJ, Josh handed me a phone number of the guy that just snagged two COMPLETE factory turbocharged DOHC 2.0Ls and wants $200 each for them.
I'll remove the oil pan to view the bearings...first, before I buy it. But at those prices...maybe I'll take both of them.

With a lil' luck, he would probably know what vehicles still had the UN-HACKED wiring harnesses & ECU still in them.

However, 6 bolt vs 7 bolts cranks...is one superior than another

If I understand this correct, DJ, I want the 91 Mighty Max SOHC 4G63 front cross member as a BOLT-IN to a Conquest to support the DOHC 4G63

And...that trans in your above pic, is that a T-5

The NEW T-56 in front of me looks a lil' differant than your pic. That T-56 I have was custom built-to-spec trans.

Btw....the CAST IRON used to make the G54B turbo blocks was ONE TUFF, HIGH NICKLE BLOCKS. I DO NOT KNOW if a n/a G54B blocks were built the same. (same metal)

*IF* there was a different mix-o-metals...N/A vs Turbocharged, it COULD mean the 2.0L saw the same differance

And...we are not strangers to using a mill to install piston squirters...should that need arrive.

And THANK-YOU, DJ!! You speak from HANDS-ON KNOWLEDGE!!

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:24 pm

The 6 bolt block is preferred, especially if you are starting from scratch.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:53 pm

6 bolt crank is going to be "better" if not stronger due to larger journals.

I suggest you build your own harness. I'm sure you've got all the parts and supply catalogs at your disposal to build a clean one from scratch.

If I understand this correct, DJ, I want the 91 Mighty Max SOHC 4G63 front cross member as a BOLT-IN to a Conquest to support the DOHC 4G63 Question

You want a Starion/Conquest crossmember (any year, any engine). You use the Starion/Conquest/D50/MightyMax rubber engine mount bushings. You use 91ish D50/MightyMax engine mount BRACKETS.

hese brackets go between the engine block and the rubber engine mount bushings. Its the same setup as a G54B in the Starion, just a slightly different bracket.

And...that trans in your above pic, is that a T-5 Question The NEW T-56 in front of me looks a lil' differant than your pic. That T-56 I have was custom built-to-spec trans.

The transmission in that picture is a Model R from a Mazda RX7 (Series 5 Turbo II)

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 5:47 pm

Hey Mike, does amp still make the plugs needed to build a new stock style harness?

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Fri Jan 23, 2009 11:57 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:6 bolt crank is going to be "better" if not stronger due to larger journals.

I suggest you build your own harness. I'm sure you've got all the parts and supply catalogs at your disposal to build a clean one from scratch.

If I understand this correct, DJ, I want the 91 Mighty Max SOHC 4G63 front cross member as a BOLT-IN to a Conquest to support the DOHC 4G63 Question
You want a Starion/Conquest crossmember (any year, any engine). You use the Starion/Conquest/D50/MightyMax rubber engine mount bushings. You use 91ish D50/MightyMax engine mount BRACKETS.

hese brackets go between the engine block and the rubber engine mount bushings. Its the same setup as a G54B in the Starion, just a slightly different bracket.

And...that trans in your above pic, is that a T-5 Question The NEW T-56 in front of me looks a lil' differant than your pic. That T-56 I have was custom built-to-spec trans.
The transmission in that picture is a Model R from a Mazda RX7 (Series 5 Turbo II)

Duh...

just the metal brackets, NOT the crossmember. 10-4.

Is that "Model R" a direct bolt-in trans to a DOHC 2.0L?

And, is it a CABLE or HYDRAULIC set-up?

Btw...this T-56 might be a lil' more trans than I may want behind a 2.0L engine.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:41 am

Professor Quest wrote: Is that "Model R" a direct bolt-in trans to a DOHC 2.0L?

And, is it a CABLE or HYDRAULIC set-up?

http://projectzerog.com/rx7transmissions.shtml

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:13 am

Professor Quest wrote: I WANT oil squirters. I want COOLER pistons. I DO NOT WANT DETONATION caused by WHITE-HOT PISTONS.

What about today's coatings (ceramic mostly) that allow you to reflect the heat away from the top of the piston back into the combustion chamber?? Doesn't this help keep the piston assembly cooler and make the squirters less effective??

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:58 am

Robert Venable wrote:
Professor Quest wrote: I WANT oil squirters. I want COOLER pistons. I DO NOT WANT DETONATION caused by WHITE-HOT PISTONS.
What about today's coatings (ceramic mostly) that allow you to reflect the heat away from the top of the piston back into the combustion chamber?? Doesn't this help keep the piston assembly cooler and make the squirters less effective??

I wouldn't say it would make them less affective, it would simply assist them in keeping the piston temps down.

Professor Quest · Post by **Professor Quest** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:15 pm

I stopped 1/4 mile racing over 25 years ago cause....frankly, It BORED-DA-SHIT outta me.

I can not recall loosing a drag race. EVER! This was the LAST photo shoot I was envolved with at
Car Craft Mag "Crusie America". like 1979?

I went into HIGH-PERFORMANCE BOATING....supercharged, turbocharged, injected...blah blah blah.

All I can suggest is ALWAYS open to YOUR DEBATES.

Every form of racing that I am envolved with is LONG DISTANCE...ENDURANCE!

And....you still haven't answerd the question:

"What is the temp of the typical combustion cycle?" Once you answer that question, the following question would be:

What is the temp of a DETONATION EXPLOSION? (no, it's not a 'combustion')

Btw...some kid just gave me a DOHC 2.0L (from a 92 Eclipse?) for exchange of the PQ's hydraulics & peddle ass. for his 88 A/T Conquest. The engine was blown & taken apart. But, hey....that's ok. You can LEARN much from that.

This kid wants the KNOWLEDGE of converting to a 5 speed and I supply the TEMPLATES to drill the necessary holes in the firewall.

Sooooo, I'm about to be EXPOSED to a bunch of YOUNG,

"DSM" gearheads.

And...Wayne Woody, one of the instructors at the University of New Mexico and the builder of the Chrysler W2 heads and myself, Wayne Wike, consult between us. If we become involved with the DSM crowd...

this could be very interesting.

Ya know..."HIGHWAY STAR!" 160mph for mile after mile is FUN to me.

And everything enjoys....EVOLUTION.

(just not me)