bellhousing development for T-56 trans

pttcolt · Post by **pttcolt** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:01 am

I don't see the demand being there consiidering there are so few wide blocks available and then fact that the bore spacings are so close that they become prone to head gasket failure. The majority of people that are going to want to make power are going to use the narrow block 2.0 because of its cost, availability, and after market support . Not to mention its proven time and time again to make power over all other forms of 4g motors.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:23 pm

this is the first fitting, I will be experimeting with it to make sure its a good option

slowquest · Post by **slowquest** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:18 pm

I'll 2nd Kane's response on the wideblock version, and also note that there would probably be a limited number that would also want this bell for the g54b that came stock in the StarQuests. There are a few running around with another version already, and I think Bill's interpretation is by far a better idea.

I'd be in for a minimum of 2 myself.

Larry

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:44 pm

I don't know why we're discussing the AWD and FWD topic again. The ONLY difference in the two is the outer ring gear for the starter. The clutches are exactly the same! The flywheel itself changed some due to factory specs, but this is mostly just between turbo and non turbo versions. Here is a link at RRE:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/clut ... eltech.htm

If you have access to a DSM group, have them gather AWD and FWD clutches and flywheels, and compare them. Or, go to the auto parts store and have them cross reference the AWD and FWD part number for a stock style clutch. THEY ARE THE SAME!

Excedy does make a FWD single plate clutch. i run a stock style Excedy on a Fidanza FWD aluminum flywheel in my 89 Colt GT. It was an eBay special for $300 together and it's awesome so far. I love how light it is.

So, let's get this issue straight and maybe have a FAQ posted about it.

Also, narrow blocks are what will be in demand. First, they come in turbo form already. Second, the reason people wanted the wide block is for the Starion tranny. (as far as I understand it) There are 8 gazillion narrow block sitting in junk yards right now in almost every FWD car built by Hyundai and Mitsubishi since at least 1988. Then you have a bunch of Dodge/Chrysler stuff etc etc etc. There is no short of narrow blocks to build. Do they even make wide blocks anymore? If not, when did they stop making them?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:04 pm

I am pretty sure most of us know that the fwd and awd share the same clutch-when you use a oem or oem style flywheel(act, fidanza, etc). You may not be aware that the twin-disk setups have a flywheel specifically made for that clutch setup and it is included with the clutch. There are more twin disk options out there for the awd setups-reason for these guys requesting the awd pattern.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:57 pm

From www.DSMtimes.org

-number of sub 10 sec FWD DSMs: 6
-number of sub 10 sec AWD DSMs: 56

Is that enough of an explanation as to why not many companies offer FWD twin disc clutch KITs?

Matt, I checked compclutch site but didn't seen any Mitsu (FWD or AWD) twin disc options. Is it something they do not publish?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:52 am

Okay, so there are more sub 10sec AWD cars. It's a matter of traction and what people are building. (I still think a 4G All-Motor car would be nice to see) And I know the companies make specific flywheel/clutch combos for certain applications. However, the only difference between the two (FWD and AWD) is the outer ring gear. I never thought to look at my Fidanza unit, but I know the ring gear is not made of aluminum like the flywheel backing surface. This means you can likely get the proper ring gear installed to use the FWD or AWD pattern. I never understood Mitsu's reasoning for doing that for such a small change.

I never thought to include the non 4G6x users into my thinking. You're absolutely correct mainstream. I was being close-minded into thinking the 4G6x was what we were talking about. I guess there is a world outside my own.

One thing no one may be thinking about when we're talking about twin disk setups and such, is that we will need to use the proper input splines for the transmission we're using. So, in that thinking, why not just order a custom flywheel while you're at it? It shouldn't be that hard to include the proper flywheel with a custom disk setup. I'll also do some searching on my own to see if there is a twin disk setup that uses a stock style flywheel that could eliminate some of this complexity.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:36 am

I fully intend to supply a wide block verision of all my stuff using Kane's flywheel as a model but
the bottom line is this
if it is 30% cheaper to buy a double disc set up for an AWD and the clutch is identical to FWD.
AND you must buy a new flywheel with the double disc clutch, then it is to my ( and your) adavatage to change to the AWL set up, its just a matter of starter location
which flywheel is it? is the flywheel you must buy an AWD or a FWD to get the right clutch for the right price? or is it a stand alone flywheel from the vendor of your choice?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:33 pm

This bolted right up, first time, the pic's speak for themselves

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:46 am

That's a big bitch. Nice work

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:48 am

how was the wedding DJ? I see you survived

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:08 am

8 days till the wedding. Bachelor party Saturday night. (My brother if you all were wondering)

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:20 pm

Your Work looks great!
Ok. Here's the deal. This is a promise.

IF I sell the current motor in the RX-7, I will sell off my B2600 bell, and trannies. I will make a 2.0l narrow+6 speed combo, think 800whp on Cam2 (pump gas-same as my colt) daily driven, 230+mph. I will campaign the car from the shootout to the Texas mile.

Just give me and excuse to do it, bill.

pttcolt · Post by **pttcolt** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:49 pm

Just wondered on pricing and availability. I'm ready to take the plunge!

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:15 pm

pttcolt wrote:Just wondered on pricing and availability. I'm ready to take the plunge!

Bill you have 2 customers that would be willing to come out and help/buy/drink beer with you!

Whats up?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:38 am

its all cool, I have made a lot of progress on the T 56 set up but I have work I am doing to develop the Gm adaptor and new bellhousings for the wide block engines.
Its just soooooooooo.....i dont know...........its kinda like controled confusion
I make changes constantly, I try this and I try that and i like one thing but not another so I go back and re do it , so i been holding back on pic's because it all changes so many times
I will post some pics this afternoon

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:06 pm

Wonderfull work as usual Bill

So it looks like approx 16 1/4" from front of motor and then a total of 45 1/2" (+-) to the mid of shifter.

Soo, 29 1/4" +- from block mounting to the mid shifter?
And is the midplate included in there?

Sorry if it's in a previous section.

Errol

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:56 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:its all cool, I have made a lot of progress on the T 56 set up but I have work I am doing to develop the Gm adaptor and new bellhousings for the wide block engines.
Its just soooooooooo.....i dont know...........its kinda like controled confusion
I make changes constantly, I try this and I try that and i like one thing but not another so I go back and re do it , so i been holding back on pic's because it all changes so many times
I will post some pics this afternoon

No worries Bill! Do your thing, we just were not able to find any info on it price wise.

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:17 pm

let me know when you'll have one ready to sell, i'll be one of the first in line for it!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:30 pm

the wall thickness is what I have been working with on the T 56, its such an unusal shape

I want it light enough , yet as srtong as i can get it

Shearer · Post by **Shearer** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:25 am

Can I throw another iron on the fire?

Would it be possible to add two mounting bosses on each side for use with a mid plate? This would make hanging the engine & tranny assembly a lot easier.

Also, put me down for at least one narrow block AWD housing. Awesome work BTW!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:31 am

where ya gonna put the exhaust pipe?

Shearer · Post by **Shearer** » Wed Dec 17, 2008 5:44 pm

Around it, through it, over it, under it. Who needs one?

There are options though. A midplate can always be clearanced for an exhaust or one can build some tubular mounts for it as well. From a fabrication standpoint it would be very easy to incorporate this style mount into most cars and be very effective. I could always weld some brackets onto the bellhousing itself if it isn't doable.

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:15 am

Or you could possibly build mounting points for bolt on ears into the mold-- just a thought.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:09 am

i will be glad to do it, but could you be a little more exact about where to place them?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:12 am

Nice to see you here, Ron

.

Bill, can we try to have this double as a scatter shield, or do they reject aluminum, no matter how thick it is?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 10:47 am

I guess that would come down to the governing body of rules Leon.

I would suggest that we find the required material and include mounts for it in the future

Shearer · Post by **Shearer** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 11:24 am

Hey Leon!

Bill,
Here is the best picture I could find quickly...

http://www.loproracecars.com/index.php? ... cts_id=180

Generally a mid plate will mount to each frame rail with two bolts per side and then mount to the tranny or engine using the existing bell housing bolt pattern or an adpater plate. Or the adapter plate will serve both functions.

If there were a couple mounting bosses on the bell housing itself it would serve as a great point to include a mount. And as Leon mentioned if a couple bosses were included around the perimeter of the bell housing could double up as mounting provisions for a scattershield. There are other benefits to mounting the motor and transmission to the car as well but that's a whole other story...

Shearer · Post by **Shearer** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:06 pm

Another image to give you a better idea. Instead of having the plate there we could go directly to the tranny.

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:05 pm

mmm foxbody

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:44 pm

I did that for a guy in New Jersey, I built a bellhousing 1/2 shorter and drilled a mid plate to fit between the bellhousing and the engine

That is an easy mid plate

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:32 am

I picked up a T56 for a shop project yesterday I cant wait until these are done.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:36 pm

KuuuuuuuuuuuuuEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL Matt !
I spent the day working on the GM adaptor plate, that gets done before Christmas

Then the T 56 and then on to the wide blocks

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 6:42 pm

Bill you now have 3 people, Me, Ray, and Ron, all of which are fabricators at some level, willing to help you out. You at the Shop on Sundays?

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:49 pm

I wish I was closer I would deffinatly stop by and help out. Years ago worked at Texas Instruments in the machine shop department before they relocated production to Mexico. I havent been in that industry in a while but I'm sure it would come right back to me after crashing your CNC a couple times LOL.

Bill do you normally attend the DSM shoot out? We will deffinatly be there this year with a couple of our race cars.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:01 am

ya know matt? this new coupler is a pretty stout system, I have resisted the idea of using my systems on a manual trans because I dont want a flywheel/clutch explosion to hurt somebody, but I use 4130 annealled steel to build it and I can have this thing hardened pretty good, I wonder if we ought to use it to hook up the T 56

If we went to an aluminuin flywheel and worked out the pilot bearing, I bet this GM adaptor would work just as good as a bellhousing. I could build a coupler to accomidate the pilot bearing and I could add or remove material from the adaptor plate until we got the right depth for the input shaft, but it really shouldnt matter because the adaptor and the coupler just 'creates' the back of a small block Chevy

that way you could run a stock Chevy clutch system with the T 56

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:23 am

I will glady be the test mule if you would like I have access to all the GM parts you just listed except the stock GM bell housing I purchased the box only. With intensions of using your your bell housing. I can probbly get one though theres a local LS1 shop that im sure may have one because they swap them for SFI units. PM me with the cost and time line.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:09 pm

I have to find an internal balanced LS 1 flywheel , that is perfferably a 153 tooth starter gear

http://www.prwonlinestore.com/sfi11bill ... 98-04.aspx

I been researching the needed clutch set up and it seems most guys agree that the LS1 is the preffered set up. The LT1 is a pull style throw out bearing, when the LS1 is a push style. The pull style was later changed back to the push style set up. Further more, most guys update thier LS1 with the LS6 set up, which GM sells a complete clutch with the flywheel included.
If I have to use the 168 tooth flywheel, I have to change the starter, I dont know if the starter pinion may hit the sidewall of the GM bellhousing
On all the aluminum flywheels I have seen,they cost $350.00 plus and some venders claim they need balanced to the engine and some say they are nuetral balanced for internal balanced engines

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 6:16 pm

so are you still going to make the narrow block bellhousings? i ask because i bought a T56 without a bellhousing or anything because i was planning on using on the FWD stuff, but if the adapter would allow me to run a GM flywheel and clutch, i'll start hunting down that stuff as well.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:15 pm

I been working with Matt Arrada, we talked it over and the GM flywheel is too much of an issue, there is no future in using the GM adaptor plate to mate the T 56 to the 4G63

I spent the day ( 1/1/2009) , today working on the T 56 narrow block and I am very happy with it

I finished the GM adaptor plate this week ( 1/1/2009) and I have started working on the new R 154 set up, its about 2 weeks away

I took all my stuff to the casting shop but they were closed for New years ( leave it to me to forget holidays)

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:03 pm

good to hear! like ive said before, as soon as you get the first batch, you can consider at least one of them sold!

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:58 am

Bill Hincher wrote:I been working with Matt Arrada, we talked it over and the GM flywheel is too much of an issue, there is no future in using the GM adaptor plate to mate the T 56 to the 4G63

Bill, would you care to elaborate? Im just interested in where the hang up is..

Great work on everything though!! Keep it up.

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 8:24 am

Bill correct me if I'm Wrong, this plan was not impossible but after our last conversation the main reason not to continue plans to use the stock LS1 housing and GM adapter plate was due to higher cost. A custom 153T nutrally balanced flywheel would be needed in order to utilize the existing starter placement on Bill's current adapter. revising the adapter plate is somthing that could be worked around at relativly little cost, but take into consideration the cost of a custom flywheel, LS1 clutch, and adapter plate one could be looking at $1000 or more that does not include the cost of the T56. By utilizing his Bell housing and FWD mitsu clutch should be more cost effective

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:08 am

yeah matt, thats the whole deal in a nutshell, the flywheels for the LT 1 were 154 T and the flywheel for the LS1 are all 168t and custom built, they would cost over $500.00

coltboostin · Post by **coltboostin** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:03 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:yeah matt, thats the whole deal in a nutshell, the flywheels for the LT 1 were 154 T and the flywheel for the LS1 are all 168t and custom built, they would cost over $500.00

154 tooth instead of 153 tooth?

Would that one tooth really trow starter engagement off?

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:14 pm

153 T was a typo I beleave the bigger issue was the fact that it was nutrally balance and that a OEM GM unit would not work it would deffinalty have to be a custom made unit. which would drive up the cost.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:21 pm

I just keep working out the details, and trimming and adjusting, its kind of a matter of 'feel' now

because I can work with this structure without causing any damage, I can accuratly place the bolt pattern to where it will go when casted

so I bored out a small space where the bolt pattern is at 2% shrink

and cut some aluminum washers out on the lathe

and welded them in place

after I place the gussets where I want them , then I can mold it all in and have it casted, hopefuly the end of this week

Matt Arruda · Post by **Matt Arruda** » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:32 pm

its art in the making

dsmpilot · Post by **dsmpilot** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:28 pm

Matt Arruda wrote:its art in the making

That's an understatement

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:33 pm

WHERE IN THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN?????????????????????????

Tony!

you been lurking!