Wondering if I can use 1970's circa RWD 5spd?

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:55 pm

hi all,
i have a 1975 colt with a 5spd

it's all good, but i want to swap in a 4g63. n/a for now, but maybe do a t later on with a beefier tranny

anyway, correct me if i'm wrong, but a wideblock will mate up to my 5spd?

anybody used mm mounts in an old colt/lancer?

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:20 am

oh, hi cityhunter. didn't recognize "smog"

came across these pics, so it's possible:

the guy states this is a 4g67 with a 4spd

anybody know if this is a 6 bolt and narrow block?

also anybody detect what mounts those are?

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:22 pm

oldcolt75 wrote:
Burabuda wrote: also anybody detect what mounts those are?
go yank a 4g63 out of a fwd car and drop it right to your tranny with ease .. just pull that plate of the back of your 4g32 and put it on the 4g63
then get a set of mighty max 2.0 mounts and your set

you mean out of a usdm eclipse? that's a wide block?
if so, then my 5spd would be the same bolt pattern as a starion 5spd?

but the plymouth arrow uses a narrow block 5spd?
i guess i need to measure my tranny bolt pattern first
i hope i can do that before i pull the motor ...

it might be easier for me to get a jdm used engine, because the usa ones in the pic-a-parts are always partially dismantled or missing parts

unfortunately, the zero g link for wideblock sources is down:
http://projectzerog.com/mitubishi_engines.shtml

EDIT by DJpH: "Here it is: http://projectzerog.com/mitsubishi_engines.shtml "

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:53 pm

yep, and you're exactly right ... i'm also amazed how they've kept the same bolt pattern. i'm excited to begin work over the winter

i've owned mostly datsuns and nissans over the years, and many interesting engine choices are unfeasible due to the constantly changing bolt patterns

so, if i'm running n/a, and wish to build that 2.1 de-stroker, what block(s) from (specifically, what car) do i want, and what head(s)?

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:58 pm

yeah thanks for the advice

so i guess the way to go is g1 head with 2.4 block

what would be the compression ratio using a t head?

and i don't supposed anybody's used a n/a head on a 2.4?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:34 pm

If I were building a 2.1L engine I'd use a high compression small port head. I think they came on the 1.6L Mirage.

Go as high compression as you can.

A 2.1L will make no less low end than a N/A 4G63, it'll just keep revving and revving and revving.

Swap out your rear gears with something from a truck / montero. This will get more torque to the wheels for each gear and will use those revs to your advantage.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:21 pm

thanks dj, i was almost ready to do the 2.4, but then i remembered having a 2.4 stroker 510 and hating that it didn't rev
i'll go the route of the destoker

because it's sooo fun on an n/a motor

edit: when i did a search for mirage engines, only the sohc came up, so i take it you mean a jdm mirage?

edit: also, i want to keep costs down, so i'm getting a jdm n/a 2.0, so that i have all the ancillaries

then i just need the 2.4 block

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:16 pm

Can you write down what you pay for EVERYTHING and part numbers? I want to put together a chart of how much this stuff costs for as many people's cases as I can.

I want to finally have an answer to "how much does a 4g6x swap cost?" And since everybody has a slightly different setup, a big chart would be the best way to answer this.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:51 pm

see that's why i need to stick with n/a for now, because of the domino effect of a turbo motor swap

i really like the look of an n/a twin cam with itb's

i don't suppose they made it easy and there's a sidedraught intake for the 4g6x?

if i find i can't stand the car for being too slow (not likely), i can always upgrade tranny, diff, etc. if i decide to go turbo

i will keep track of costs and part #'s, so that we have a comp for the n/a swap

re: bolt pattern, no i am not sure if they're the same, and since nobody else seems to know, i won't know until i mate them up myself

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:32 am

ok, thanks for adding your confirmation

i'm going to post all this info up somewhere so the next guy like me doesn't have to reinvent the wheel

i'd love to see more oldschool colts representin'

oh, and i hope my build will light a fire under the butts of the long-termers

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:08 am

The 1.6 heads out of an 89 colt/mirage dohc turbo and the heads off of the 1.8 dohc hyundai elantras both have the same size combustion chamber. The only difference between the two is the 1.8 head has larger intake ports than the 1.6. In fact they( 1.8 ) are the same size as a 1g 4g63 head.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:52 pm

hmm, don't you think the large port would be best for hp and the small port best for torque?

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:18 pm

If you are building a 2.1, the larger ports would be better imo. You will be moving a good volume of air at the upper rev limit of that engine.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:25 pm

You'd make 300hp max on a N/A 2.1L so the large ports aren't that critical. I'd say velocity created by the small ports would be more critical. Plus, with the small ports you have more material to work with to do a smarter porting job.

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Oct 24, 2008 9:31 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:You'd make 300hp max on a N/A 2.1L so the large ports aren't that critical. I'd say velocity created by the small ports would be more critical. Plus, with the small ports you have more material to work with to do a smarter porting job.

Iirc, na motors benefit from a larger port since they can only take in as much air as they can ingest themselves and the larger port helps it take in as much as possible. As the revs go higher, the larger ports will help out even more imo.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:11 am

DJpowerHaus wrote:You'd make 300hp max on a N/A 2.1L so the large ports aren't that critical. I'd say velocity created by the small ports would be more critical. Plus, with the small ports you have more material to work with to do a smarter porting job.

serious? 300hp n/a seems like a lot ... i'd be happy with 200 at the wheels

btw, the 2.4 crank is a "bolt in" for the 2.0 block? what rods are needed?

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:35 am

To build a destroker you need stroker pistons (wrist pins raised 6mm) and long rods (162mm).

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:44 pm

but i really don't want to make things too complicated for the initial swap

i guess i'll just run the 2.0 as is, drive it around, then decide later if i need to build another motor

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 3:07 am

See photo below for the port size difference between the G1 4g63 inlet gasket and the 4g61 inlet port.

and with an adapter plate and an evo 4 manifold

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:23 pm

hehe, cool stuff dave. i'm guessing this is what you planned for my car? (or for one like mine?)

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 4:38 am

It's for a non-turbo setup in a colt GTO. This setup is only an interim step to quad throttle bodies.

Yes matt this is what I planned to do to your car

.

Dave

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Fri Oct 31, 2008 12:30 pm

hehe, well in hindsight i should've let you buy it, do the swap, then sell it to me

i noticed on the "top secret" colt they made custom made n/a extractors, and it looked like quite cramped on that side

so you were going to do an n/a, and what problems did you envision as far as rh clearance?

i doubt running the factory down pointing t manifold would work on our cars, would it?

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:03 am

The main issue is the steering box and linkages just like you have with the astron motor. I will use custom 4-2-1 headers similar to the ones currently in my GTO. I hadn't even thought to use the factory cast manifold as a long term solution.

Dave

dwlee · Post by **dwlee** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:21 am

K-MAC make a camber/caster kits for GA, GB, GC and GD Galant as well as some early Lancers. Have a look at http://www.k-mac.com.au/ To find the useful info hit the new products link followed by mitsubishi link.

Dave

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:52 pm

update on my swap
well, talking to dwlee, he's got his engine in the car, and he's doing r&d
me, i haven't even bought my engine yet, which brings me to the point: i'm thinking doing a 7bolt turbo instead of the n/a because of the relocation of the rear mount cas plus the crank sensor
i didn't plan on turbo at all, but when i thought about the cost of converting a turbo engine to n/a i knew that it wasn't practical
so, now we'll see if the colt 5spd can hold up to a stock turbo engine
dwlee tells me the colt 5spd should have the same internals as the d50 5spd
if i blow up the 5spd, i'll tear it apart first to see what went wrong, and either replace it with a d50, or see if i can get somebody like the professor to do a trick rebuild

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:07 am

there are many na 4g63 engines out there. in fact if you use a turbo motor you will have more things to fabricate to get it running. alot of guys on here have put in these motors in the colt with the first gen cas on them without any major issues, plus the first gen cas lets you change the timing. im going the other way. i have a 2nd gen 4g63t 97-99 motor and im going to use the 1st gen cas on it.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:42 am

yeah, well unless somebody shows me otherwise, only the late 1g-t engines had the front cam and crank sensors
true i could install them on the non-turbo, but again, i'm not sure that the costs of messing with a non-turbo (potential rebuild, cas mods, cams, custom header, etc) would be worth it, especially if i'm not happy with the power output
first priority is keeping the oem 5spd in the original location
second is front cam and crank cas
third is 7-bolt for increased steering clearance

fb is appreciated!

75COLT · Post by **75COLT** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:17 am

Buruba, You are going to have to push the firewall back a great distance if you want the trans in the stock location. I am using dsm urathane mounts with mighty max brackets. The motor sits alot higher and is really close to the firewall even after pushing it in 2 1/2 inches for cas and thermostat. My suggestion would be slot the motor mounts and brackets and add small spacers to trans mount to give you more room at firewall. I was the same way as you where I didn't want to alter my engine bay or structure of the car but it must be done with this swap.

Ian

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:15 pm

on my install i slotted the mounts to move the motor 1 inch forward, for the transmission mount all i did was put in spacers in that thickness to align the mount properly so it will bolt up (washers) very cheap fix and its solid, shifter is still in a very good position and you dont have to do anything to the transmission shifter hole on the tunnel

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:18 pm

if you want to see some pics of it sitting in my engine bay go on my cardomain page here is the link http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2386274

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:10 am

ok, so you moved your engine forward to give yourself some room back there, but you have to build a new driveshaft anyway, whereas i'm trying to avoid making a new shaft

if my engine sits close to the firewall without hitting, i will just do the front outlet, because there likely won't be enough room to have a slim 90 degree outlet

if all else fails, i'll just have to move everything forward, and just get a frickn' new driveshaft!

oh and why did you use an aftermarket header? did the zero-g plan not work in your situation?

btw, never even HEARD of a stellar before

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:13 pm

i thought about flipping the original manifold upside down but i didnt think of it with an adapter. i was going to cut the original mani and flip it and weld but i thought if i was going to do all that work i might as well do it to an aftermarket one. my brain didnt think of making a simple flange like the 75 colt thought of. oh well we cant all be geniuses

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:14 pm

oh and the stellar is basically an mk4 ford cortina underpinnings with a mitsubishi drivetrain, you get the nice double wishbone front suspension with that set up

StellarDOHC · Post by **StellarDOHC** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:43 pm

Yeah the Hyundai Stellar was the first hybrid car, it had Euro Ford suspension / rear axle, Mitsu Japanese drivetrain, Italian design, and was sold by a Korean manufacturer. Now if thats not a hybrid tell me what is haha. Its like the car was made by the U.N. or Dr Frankenstein.

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:27 am

your description is titties

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:16 pm

so i'm ready to commit to a motor, but i'm deliberating whether to buy a jap-spec used engine, or get something out of a pick-a-part or cl and rebuild it myself

seems like most guys here build their own 6bolts

but i'm going 7bolt for various reasons, and i haven't seen one at the local pick-a-parts yet

any cost considerations that can help me make up my mind?

i will be keeping it basically stock, and mild boost, if that matters

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:42 pm

Your best bet is used from either salvage yard, CL or local DSM clubs. A whole running motor can be had for less than $300. As far as using the turbo 7-bolt (specifically 2G), there are going to be fewer found in salvage yards due to less being produced. If you're after a 1G 7-bolt, then people are practically throwing those things away because they're afraid of crankwalk.

Just take your time and you'll find a good used motor. No need to rebuild right away. My advice is to get a gasket set and timing set and just replace everything you can. It will help you get to know your motor and make sure there aren't any oil leaks or broken parts to slow your progress. If you have a high mileage engine, try to replace the valve stem seals while you're in there. They tend to leak oil onto the valves over time and cause some smoking issues in bad cases.

Hopefully you can remove the head before you purchase any motor (you'll need a 10mm allen head socket w/ braker bar to remove it) and you can inspect the inside of the motor. Poorly maintained engines might have some cylinder wall scoring. Most do not. The valves and pistons usually have quite a bit of carbon build up due to oil leaks and the stupid crankcase re-breathers. This is not a concern since you can simply clean this off.

If you're sticking to a mostly stock motor, the stock parts are more than capable of holding the power. No "upgrades" are really needed and neither is a rebuild. Basic upgrades might include 3G lifters, balance shaft removal, porting exhaust manifold and turbo etc. Learn about your motor and the "free" mods you can make. You can easily get 300+hp out of a stock turbo (14b) and engine.

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:47 pm

sound advice ... thx!

so can somebody point me to a few good forums that might have local (socal) members with 7bolts fs?

there are sooo many forums, i don't know where to start!

turbostellar · Post by **turbostellar** » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:47 pm

what are your reasons for wanting a 7 bolt?

Burabuda · Post by **Burabuda** » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:08 am

1) using evo intake 2) 1pc main girdle 3) front cas

crank walk will of course be addressed during build