4G63 Powered TR7 project

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:46 pm

Hi guys, I thought I would get active on your forum now that I am back to working on my TR7 project:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999

The motor is 90% mounted. I just have to finalize a couple of last details. Once it is fixed in place, I will have to address a few swap related issues:

- Thermostat housing relocation (probably to the front of the head)
- Oil pan modification (to clear the steering rack)

The rest should be relatively straight forward. Here is my laundry list of parts sitting on the shelf:

- BR RWD intake (Eric’s old unit)
- NT throttle body
- BR custom RWD oil pan
- AEM EMS
- Plebani modified 1G harness
- EVO I/C
- ’88 Starion tranny w/MightyMax bell housing (built by Plebani)

Other areas which are great at distracting me, and preventing me from completing this motor swap:

- Front Viper calipers/EVO rotors conversion
- ’94 Miata rear end conversion
- EVO8 Seats

I should be busy in the next new weeks

.

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:59 pm

How much do a set of viper brakes go for?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:09 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DJpowerHaus @ Mar 17 2005, 03:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> How much do a set of viper brakes go for? [/quote]
Vipers use true 13” rotors (unlike EVO “13” brakes”, which are actually 12.60”) and a Brembo 4 piston calipers.

This is what they look like:

<a href='http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WDVW' target='_blank'>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... me=WDVW</a>

Viper guys just love to replace them with StopTech 14” rotors/calipers. Which means that there is a pretty steady supply of barely used Viper Brembos

. You can usually pick up a set of front Viper brakes for $300-$500 (though, I am not sure just how useful rotors are going to be for you).

I found out about Viper brakes from the Durango/Dakota forums. As I bought one set for my Durango, I still had a want-ad in the Viper forums and someone offered me an extra set at a price I just could not pass up

. I picked them up “just in case”. And now, it looks that they are going to work just fine in my TR7 .

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:31 am

OK guys, after a lengthy sabbatical, I am back on course! I am committed to getting this car to run by next spring. Even if it means that I will not get to implement all of my pipe-dreams for this car. The most important part is that it has 4G63 in it and that it runs

.

Also, I started a CarDomain account, so I once again have a working link.

Admins: feel free to move my thread into a project car forum!

Eric · Post by **Eric** » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:59 am

What a badass project!

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:05 pm

Well, the oil pan and motor mounts are out being powder coated. So I took some time to snap some photos of a newly painted K-member (which isn't really "K" shaped anymore

).

Thanks, Eric!

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:42 am

Here is my motor and fully assembled k-frame test fitted together:

Next step, k-frame going into the car!

As a side note, I was shocked to find out that my Mighty Max/Starion tranny weighs only 62lbs!

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:15 pm

It is a about time that I make an update on my project. I have been working on the clutch hydraulic throw out bearing. Which is almost done:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999/5

I am just going to have to finish up some hydraulic lines.

Aside from the clutch, I have been working on adapting Dodge Viper Brembo calipers with 12.6" EVO8 rotors. I will add brakes project photos later.

I am also going to sand blast the area under clutch master cylinder to remove some surface rust. My goal is to have it at SO 08

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:18 pm

GRNDSM wrote:It is a about time that I make an update on my project. I have been working on the clutch hydraulic throw out bearing. Which is almost done:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999/5

I am just going to have to finish up some hydraulic lines.

Aside from the clutch, I have been working on adapting Dodge Viper Brembo calipers with 12.6" EVO8 rotors. I will add brakes project photos later.

I am also going to sand blast the area under clutch master cylinder to remove some surface rust. My goal is to have it at SO 08

damn. almost a year between updates. slacker

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:38 pm

Well, guys another quick update. I finished the alternator relocation using my style of upper bracket:

And some of the final bling shots:

More photos here:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999/4

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:50 pm

Can we get more details on the alternator, brackets, and pulleys???

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:22 pm

The bottom bracket is from JayRacing.com (the one on the middle) .

(BTW, Jay's kit is an amazing deal!)

I was originally going to use another alternator (from Montero Sport), so I bought only the bottom bracket from Jay. However Montero anternator didn't work out and I eventually decided to use DSM alternator. I was almost ready to go back to Jay for this upper bracked, when I found this bracket on e-bay, it looked like it might work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MCC565-C ... dZViewItem

I have no idea what application it comes from (they called it: "(MCC565)CHROME SB CHEVY UPPER ALTERNATOR BRACKET SWP"), but it looked right and was cheap enough to take a chance. So I bought it and cut off the first hole. What was left fit like a glove!

Robert Venable · Post by **Robert Venable** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:32 pm

Thanks alot for the info.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:24 pm

Hey Leon, its nice to have you back!

I noticed you have gone away from a front harmonic dampner assembly and went to a straight pulley. I was wondering if you felt the dampner wasnt necessary and would you suggest running the balancer shafts if you decided to eliminate the dampner?

Thanks
Bill

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:25 pm

Bill,

I was one of the original old Club DSM members (back in the mid to late 90’s) who pointed out the dangers of underdrive pulleys, which had also gotten rid of the torsional damper (aka “harmonic balancer”). So I am well aware of what can happen. And feel as somewhat of a hypocrite for having it on my car…

However, this is going to be rarely driven car (~500 miles/year). And I am using a “junk yard motor”, so there isn’t much investment in it.

If I had a new, race motor or if it saw more driving miles, I would invest into the pulley with the damper. On my race car, I was using a factory damper, even when I was making over 600hp at the wheels.

I think that these pulleys are fine to use, IF you understand what you are doing to your engine and willing to accept the consequences!

As for the balance shafts, they have nothing to do with the type of damping that you get from the “harmonic balancer”. The balance shafts keep the engine from shaking back and forth, it is there purely for driver’s comfort. The “harmonic balancer” (which isn’t a correct name for it, thus the quotation marks

) dampers the harmonic resonance in the crank shaft itself, thus protecting the crankshaft and bearings from damage.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:23 pm

did you offset the torsional stress issues in the crankshaft with a much lighter flywheel?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:27 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:did you offset the torsional stress issues in the crankshaft with a much lighter flywheel?

Why would you get more torsional stress with a lighter flywheel?

It is true that making things lighter changes the natural frequency and thus the harmonics of the crankshaft/FW assembly. But I haven't seen anyone demonstrate that it is actually made worse with a lighter FW :shrug:

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:44 pm

I was just asking out of curiosity, I really dont know the answer, so I was asking. I would like to change how the balancer mounts in the front of the crank so I thought I would ask

It just seems with the 4G63 the mains are up so high in the block and the block is cast ( not aluminum) and with excellent main bearing support, there really wouldnt be a lot of use for the front balancer if the flywheel assembly was lighter.
To my limited understanding, the balancer offsets input from combustion events happening against the crankshaft's smooth rotation and works in conjuction with the size and wieght of the flywheel.

I could see where a very light , small diameter flywheel would work better without the front balancer

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Dec 31, 2007 12:59 pm

Bill,

I think that I now see which “balance” you are talking about. That is yet a 3rd type of “balance” – a dynamic balance of the rotating assembly. Despite the similar name, it has nothing to do with the balance shafts and the torsional damper. Other than the fact that the torsional harmonic damper also tends to perform a function of an external balancer on some cars, which is why people call it “harmonic balancer”.

I have been told on several occasions that when balancing engine assembly, it should be done with the flywheel and front pulley attached. I can see how that could be beneficial, but as practical matter, how can you dedicate a FW/pulley to the engine and keep it permanently “assigned” that engine? So all of my “built” engines always came balanced at the machine shop with out the FW/pulley and everything seemed fine.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:49 pm

TR7 has finally has front brakes!

More info here:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2472999/6

Now, I will focus on building motor and putting together clutch!

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:20 pm

Im just curious if we can get some more information on the turbo set up and exhaust manifold. It would appear to me that you have an evo style turbo on your car, yet you claim it is a 20g. Is it some type of hybrid using the evo compressor/turbine housing and a 20g wheel cast to spin in the opposite direction? I personally would like to run a factory evo wheel and am more interested in the fitmit of the factory evo exhaust manifold on a dsm style head. I've found pictures of it before and am rather certain it will bolt up, but recently have been told by a few people that they personally tried it and the flanges didn't match up. What exhaust manifold and turbo are you using? thanks

edit: looked around some more, looks like it is possible.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 1:29 am

I am not sure if I follow you, but I am using EVO 8 16G with a matching EVO8 header and 02 housing. They do fit with the use of 1/2" spacer and grinding on block and on the turbo.

I will post most photos later on EVO8 turbo fitment.

I like this set-up because the turbo is pointed in the "right" direction. And isn't flipped, like DSM turbos on RWD cars. Plus, EVO guys get rid of them for under $200, despite the fact that they can make well over 400whp!

I am really curious what I can do with this turbo on a DSM 4g63.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:58 am

EVO exhaust manifold bolts right up to a DSM head (did you look at my photos?). A custom manifold might make things fit better (no spacer and you might be able to keep the alternator on the original side of the engine). But I am not sure how long I will keep this turbo, so I am starting out with a cheapo, EBAY special manifold and take it from there.

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:17 am

GRNDSM wrote: The rest should be relatively straight forward. Here is my laundry list of parts sitting on the shelf:

- BR RWD intake (Eric’s old unit)
- NT throttle body
- BR custom RWD oil pan
- AEM EMS
- Plebani modified 1G harness
- TD06H-20G

I was basing what I said off this first post here, but you answered all my questions rather perfectly. I'll probably have a custom spacer made in that case, any idea how thick the spacer would need to be to have the turbo perfectly clear the motor with no grinding? I was planning on using the oem evo 9 exhaust manifold, but I would assume that placement of the exhaust manifold to turbo flange would be similar for even an ebay manifold. I'll be measuring it out myself but I just want to get an idea for how much room we are talking about here.

thanks

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:13 pm

GRNDSM wrote:They do fit with the use of 1/2" spacer and grinding on block and on the turbo.

Could you give us info on the studs you used to bolt the manifold + spacer to the head?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:02 pm

20G... Boy, that was a long time ago!

That turbo ended-up being junk

.

I used a long stud from the 1G CAS (the one that is closer to the TB), part number MS401431. At 48mm it is just barely long enough. I wouldn't mind using slightly longer stud (~50-52mm).

But if you want to avoid any grinding, you would have to use two 1/2" spacers and MUCH longer studs... I thought that it was a bit much and made it work with just one spacer.

Like I said before, a custom header would be the best solution, but its cost makes it less viable.

It didn't come to me as a surprise that Ebay header and O2 housing were both considrably warped on the sealing surfaces. Once I have them planed, I will test fit everything in its "final" configuration and will take more photos.

TsTKl · Post by **TsTKl** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:24 pm

so thats a 1 inch spacer with a 64mm stud. Sounds good. Im sure it won't be that hard, and exhaust gaskets are 13 dollars or so each if I remember correctly. I know someone who already has the flange spec'ed out and everything, so its just a matter of getting some ticker metal through there and possibly port matching for any error that I might incure. Thanks for the info

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:54 pm

Guys, I got little distracted this summer with this probject:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/3117423

But I made pact with myself not to do 4G63 swap on it until TR7 is running. And I REALLY want to turbocharge it

. So I now have an extra motivation to finish the TR7!

I am prepping engine compartment for paint. So a "real" angine/tranny should be inside by the end of September!

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:41 pm

I 2.4L big turbo'd 4WD van would be excellent!

The only thing better would be one based on the older space van where you sit in front of the front wheels

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:13 pm

Sorry man, I can't stand 2.4L engines... They are good if you like (and can handle) high torque at lower RPMs, but I prefer to rev my engines high

.

And 2.0's relatively low torque is a drivetrain saver!

So no 2.4 for me

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:34 pm

I think it could be made into a AWD sleeper

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:32 am

GRNDSM wrote:Sorry man, I can't stand 2.4L engines... They are good if you like (and can handle) high torque at lower RPMs, but I prefer to rev my engines high .

And 2.0's relatively low torque is a drivetrain saver!

So no 2.4 for me

try using a 2.4 in a relatively bulletproof RWD drivetrain leon. youll change your mind

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:42 pm

peregrine wrote:try using a 2.4 in a relatively bulletproof RWD drivetrain leon. youll change your mind

If this was true, why do most (all?) RWD race DSMs are running 2.0's?

jeffball610 · Post by **jeffball610** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:01 pm

I'd stick with a simple and straight forward 2.0L AWD swap. Since the car is already AWD, all you really need is the motor, wiring and ECU. If you plan to race it (that would be cool) then swap out the rear end. I think they were all 3 bolt open diff rears. Who would have thought the DSM had the same underpinnings as a little SUV?

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 8:39 pm

GRNDSM wrote:
peregrine wrote:try using a 2.4 in a relatively bulletproof RWD drivetrain leon. youll change your mind
If this was true, why do most (all?) RWD race DSMs are running 2.0's?

so your tr7 is a race car now?

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 1:25 am

No... but I would like to stay true to my racing background

.

Anyway, I do not like them, so you will not find me building one any time soon

.

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 10:57 am

GRNDSM wrote:No... but I would like to stay true to my racing background .

Anyway, I do not like them, so you will not find me building one any time soon .

im just bustin your balls. whatever you build it will be fast. so hurry the fuck up and get this beast done

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:21 pm

Oh, I know you are just busting my balls.

BTW, this was my other distraction this summer:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x3a0ss

I finally got to run 9's, all those years after selling the Green Machine. For those who are not familiar with this car, it belongs to Bruce Kwartler, I tune it and drive it

.

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:26 pm

jeffball610 wrote:I'd stick with a simple and straight forward 2.0L AWD swap. Since the car is already AWD, all you really need is the motor, wiring and ECU. If you plan to race it (that would be cool) then swap out the rear end. I think they were all 3 bolt open diff rears. Who would have thought the DSM had the same underpinnings as a little SUV?

the rear thats in there is really funky a 3 bolt would be an upgrade my friend john was building one until he bailed and bought a skyline. id pick one up if i ever found one somewhat local to me.

glade to hear your back on track leon. now get that bitch done

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 2:56 pm

GRNDSM wrote:Oh, I know you are just busting my balls.

BTW, this was my other distraction this summer:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/x3a0ss

I finally got to run 9's, all those years after selling the Green Machine. For those who are not familiar with this car, it belongs to Bruce Kwartler, I tune it and drive it .

how interesting. bruce ripped me off on my first RWD converter. the thing was a fuckin paper weight and he sold it to me for $800. if you do some searching on my threads here youll see what i mean. live and learn i guess.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:18 pm

I have seen Bruce go above and beoynd what most people would consider reasonable, in the process loosing thousands of $$$, in order to make good on his deals.

At times, I have told him that he was crazy for doing it...

So it is surprises me to hear you say this. I have tried searching for your posts with ether Bruce or Kwartler in it them and came up with nothing.

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Sat Sep 20, 2008 8:26 pm

GRNDSM wrote:I have seen Bruce go above and beoynd what most people would consider reasonable, in the process loosing thousands of $$$, in order to make good on his deals.

At times, I have told him that he was crazy for doing it...

So it is surprises me to hear you say this. I have tried searching for your posts with ether Bruce or Kwartler in it them and came up with nothing.

just do a search for buschur converter under my name. then youll see what i mean. i got the converter in that condition from bruce.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:35 pm

I did some more work over the weekend. I did a lot annoying (non engine swap related) things that I have been putting off.

Removed old, rusted through gas tank.
Removed trunk lid (I need to plug up luggage rack holes)
Stripped and prepped the engine bay:

Then, I rolled it out of the garage for the first time in 5 or 6 years:

After sitting in the sun for just about 10 min, I was able to put on the top:

I haven't been able to close the top because it became too stiff and I needed to warm it up in the sun

Next stop: body shop to paint the engine bay and trunk lid. That would allow me to start assembling the car! I can’t wait!!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:42 pm

I have some idea's about the waterpump you may like Leon, I would like to build a remote mount that would offset the water pump to one side of the engine, shortening up the engine length

peregrine · Post by **peregrine** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:23 am

are you gonna go rock crawlin?

i know, i know itll sit lower with the motor and stuff back in just havin fun.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:49 pm

Rear springs are extremely soft (something like 100 lbs/in)! But I welcome the extra height, because I will be able to cut the springs for stiffer spring rate

. I want to do a new rear end, so I do not want to spent too much on the old rear end/suspension.

Bill, I was just going to use an electric water pump controlled by AEM. But you have me intrigued

I am, however very much interested in your T56 adaptor, once I blow my Starion guts tranny, I will want something VERY strong

.

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:41 pm

Leon, I've got several sets of Honda/acura springs from various cars.
If you would like, Give me the seat dia and length you're looking at and I'll do some diggin.
They would be stock, non cut, and flat on both ends.

Errol

fuel · Post by **fuel** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:56 pm

Nice work! Interesting conversion on the old Trumpy!

Is that a custom exhaust manifold or can you get them 'off the shelf' so to speak? I too have a twin scroll evo turbo which I'll be using on mine, but I need to fabricate an exhaust manifold, was thinking of keeping the turbo high mount from looking at your manifold it seems the turbo doesn't hang down too far to foul the stock engine mounts and steering lines.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:43 pm

Thanks!

That is the "Ebay" EVO7-9 manifold that sells for around $150 with 02 housing. I do not think that it will last very long before it will crack, but I do not plan on puttin much more than 500-1000 miles on this turbo. So it should serve me just fine.

However, you can buy much better quality EVO7-9 manifolds for a bit more money, if you dicide that you want to go with EVO turbo.

fuel · Post by **fuel** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:31 am

I already have the TD05HRA twin scroll from an E6, I'm just deciding now which way to mount it.

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