bellhousing development for T-56 trans

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:52 pm

I been asked a couple times about the turbo 350 adaptor, I seen the crap that came out of the original supplier, I can top that no problem, I just cant figure out why he didnt just use a GM starter and flywheel with an adaptor

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:50 am

Bill I can borrow to you a 2.4 max truck block for fitment for a while If you can ship out that B20a5 Prelude long block..??

I've been working on that civic conversion (trying to fit the whole quest floorpan in it to see if the rear suspension will work out, and will be putting that quest on the back burner.

Let me know.. I have a small skid that I can bolt it down to. Where is the closest major airport to you? I may be able to get it out by the first of the week.

Errol, 77amc

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:02 pm

Bill Hincher wrote:I been asked a couple times about the turbo 350 adaptor, I seen the crap that came out of the original supplier, I can top that no problem, I just cant figure out why he didnt just use a GM starter and flywheel with an adaptor

I have at least 4 buyers for that set-up Bill.

Wouldnt it just be a 6 bolt to chevy bolt pattern adaptor?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:49 pm

yeah, it would just be a plate that is drilled in both bolt patterns, but the real beauty would be to use a chevy flywheel so you could use any torque converter at a lot lower cost
I cant figure out why they went with a custom flywheel , there are lots of starter combinations for the chevy set up, you dont need to stick it out with a big bulky original chevy starter

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:00 am

Yea, we defiantly wanna use the GM flywheel, Hook it up brother!

I have a guy really needing it as he will need the faster starters for methanol. (he has a few other buyers lined up for this)

And I want one for a mechanical fuel pump set-up.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:29 am

emagdnim wrote:Yea, we defiantly wanna use the GM flywheel, Hook it up brother!

I have a guy really needing it as he will need the faster starters for methanol. (he has a few other buyers lined up for this)

And I want one for a mechanical fuel pump set-up.

are you meaning a belt drive off the crank between the flywheel and the block? for the fuel pump drive?
we can do all that but I need drawings

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 2:54 pm

No, sorry... I just threw that in there because its hard to get mechanical fuel pump cars started with slow starters.

Mine will be off the old distributor drive shaft, somehow.. im still working on that as well.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:26 am

I am getting ready for the first casting on the T 56 narrow block set up

I just keep adding material and sanding it down

You can see how large the transmission bolt pattern is compared to the enigine bolt pattern, this has created huge problems in drafting as well as trying to keep it strong and light

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Thu May 22, 2008 9:46 pm

Damn thats crazy shit, Fuck it weld the housing to the auto tranny!

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu May 22, 2008 10:07 pm

If I could just weld it up, I would have been done long ago

It is important to keep everything a straight as posible as I go, the back ( transmission) bolt pattern has a tendency to twist as the housings are casted, so the holes tend to loose thier location. because I am dealing with small perches to locate the bolt holes, I have to allow for that twist
I took the rough pattern to the casting place today and they cant draft it the way it is, I have to get rid of the ' ring' I had put in the outer lower bolt bosses
Thats a bitch, I really liked that touch and look and it was a lot of work, but I gotta cut it out

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri May 23, 2008 10:20 am

from what I can tell, they would have to build the core box before they could pour te casting, that would $2000.00 bwfore the first pour, well, if it dont fit, you gotta build a second core box

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:16 pm

Bill, I meant to weld that bellhousing on to an TH400, eliminating the adaptor plate! haha

emagdnim · Post by **emagdnim** » Fri May 23, 2008 11:16 pm

Also, Bill... have you thought about casting an aluminum oil pan for the dry sump set-up?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 pm

I continue the work on the T 56 narrow block

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Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:49 pm

working,working,working

because the casting shop told me to get rid of the really nice support ring I had built, i went back and built up the bolt bosses on the outside of the housing and then trimmed the eccessive wieght from behind the bosses

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:06 am

the T 56 pattern is worked out, this is for the narrow block ,I just keep adjusting it , over and over again, getting wall thickness right, and the shrink factors worked out

I will probably have two made and check it for alignment and machinability and then start knocking them out

77amc · Post by **77amc** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:12 pm

Just simply amazing..

You have to have some clones with all these projects you're getting sorted out.
Or just loading up on cocaine and speed.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:40 am

noooooooooooooooooooooo

this is just a distraction

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 9:40 am

I have the raw castings in for the T 56

I will be testing these for machine time and fit and making some adjustments

but right now, I got intakes on my mind

Cheaptalon · Post by **Cheaptalon** » Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:52 pm

Looks great! I really want to bolt one of these up to my car once my swap gets underway.

Morpheus · Post by **Morpheus** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:09 am

To account for wideblock/narrow block, why not put some extra material (width) on the locating dowel bosses? Then you could drill for either setup.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:12 am

one of the advantages to the wide block is the larger flywheel, the larger flywheel allows more surface area for a clutch disc . That way you can use a lower spring rating on your pressure plate and reduce problems with crankwalk and add power to your clamping work

The diameter increase in the flywheel is signifacant , and that will increase the diameter of the bellhousing opening and the starter location, plus there is an increase in flywheel depth to allow for the thicker flywheel

other then that, I will have to drill the dowels pins wider too

turbotalon1g · Post by **turbotalon1g** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 3:33 pm

I just wanted to say that it is amazing what you are doing and i cannot wait to purchase one of these for my swap.

Thank you.

Aaron

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 5:02 pm

DJ is coming down this week and we plan to focus on the project
we woill be building the wide block at the same time

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:30 pm

i dont think i ever got an answer- i was wondering what flywheel and starter you designed the bellhousing to work with?(narrow block to T56)

Post by **DJpowerHaus** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:34 am

Bill is designing everything to work with 1G FWD parts (flywheel and starter). He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:38 pm

perfect- i have those already...

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:43 pm

ok, here's another question; what kind of slave cylinder is used for the hydraulic throwout bearing- the FWD mitsu? the stock T56? something aftermarket?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:33 pm

the T 56 will only come with an internal throw out bearing that will be supplied with the bellhousing

Gentleman Rogue · Post by **Gentleman Rogue** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:44 pm

do you just use a Wilwood aftermarket slave cylinder then, or what?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:50 pm

no, these are self contained internal throw out bearings from coleman machine, they were built for stock cars

pttcolt · Post by **pttcolt** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 2:23 pm

DJpowerHaus wrote:Bill is designing everything to work with 1G FWD parts (flywheel and starter). He can correct me if I'm wrong.

Isn't this going to be an issue if people want to run a twin disc setup. I am fond of the quartermaster setup because of its cost and I know how well it works on a AWD car. I don't think they make a set up for a FWD though.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Wed Sep 24, 2008 9:39 pm

I would be very happy to work with you on a quality quarter master set up , if you are familiar with it
To my understanding, the clutch for the FWD is the same part number for the AWD, I think I looked that up and found that to be true

pttcolt · Post by **pttcolt** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:26 pm

Yes the clutchs are both the same but the diameter of the flywheels are different. the Awd has a smaller diameter so the starter location is slightly different. When you purchase one of these setups It comes complete with special flywheel minus the starter ring.

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:06 pm

There are so few serious FWD race cars that most clutch companies only make AWD variation of DSM flywheel.

One point about Quater Master twin clutch, it about as stiff at ACT 2600! And I wouldn't call it an everyday clutch

.

Does anyone know if Exidy makes FWD DSM clutch set-up?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:08 pm

if it is to your adavantage I can build to an AWD flywheel but I want to build my housings for the wide block first, Kane and DJ have told me they would preffer the larger diameter wide block flywheel because of less stress involed with crank walk

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:41 pm

Kane and DJ have told me they would preffer the larger diameter wide block flywheel because of less stress involed with crank walk

I am not sure if I am following your logic here. Could you please elaborate?

screemin eagle · Post by **screemin eagle** » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:49 pm

more clutch disc so they need less calmping force is my guess

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 1:19 am

The actual clutch mechanism is identical between FWD and AWD, the difference is in the FW outer gear. I do not understand how that can be related to CW.

And since when is CW is any concern on a 6 bolt motors? The only 6 bolt motors that I have seen CWing were not properly machined and/or assembled. A "normal" 6 bolt motor will take ACT 3200 clutch without any problems.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:11 am

the wide block and the EVO use a much wider flywheel and that is where the peformance engines are going to tend to be
The narrow block is okay , but the wide block has a taller block and allows the use of longer rods for the higher horsepower levels, so its to the builders advantage to build the wide block with a larger diameter flywheel that requires less clamping force and yet more disc area
I can see the adavantage to a smaller diameter flywheel on the narrow block ( but not that much) if you have more performance products available to it at a better price. I was unaware of the FWD flywheel limitations

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 6:26 pm

The narrow block is okay , but the wide block has a taller block and allows the use of longer rods for the higher horsepower levels, so its to the builders advantage to build the wide block with

I let my feeling known about 2.4L engine in another thread, so there is no need to get off topic here

. But if you must have one, they do come in "narrow block" as well.

Looks like Exidy does offer twin disc for FWD motors:

http://www.exedyusa.com/race/MM042SR

So at least there is one option for a twin disc. Exidy clutch is much more "mild" than the hard core Quater Master or PTT (those two are very similar). You can daily drive on Exidy twin, but it does not stand up to sub 9 second abuse on AWD DSMs.

Of course, the problem with Exidy twin disc clutch is that it is almost $1800

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:46 pm

your an engineer , Leon,
you know that wide bellhousing bolt patterns allows more strength with less effort, the wide block is win,win

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:36 pm

Theoretically, you are correct, Bill. But there are other factors:

The "narrow" feature of the "narrow" engine has not been a problem for anyone, so it is a non-issue. My problem with "wide" blocks is that you MUST start by rebuilding an engine, which automatically adds $1000-$3000 to your project cost.

And if you want to find a quick replacement, you are out of luck! No DSM vendor will keep a wide block engine in stock

. I have been in a situation when I needed an engine in hurry and I would hate to be faced with finding a wide block…

I think that wide block was an excellent option when you were looking to bolt-up to the Mazda tranny bell housing (or whatever else bell housing it was compatible with), but when you are starting from scratch (like what you are doing), you should go with the most commonly available components and that would be:

"narrow" DSM block

and

AWD FW

To go with "wide block" and FWD FW is like choosing an Olds or Pontiac small block for your Camaro and overlooking a SBC

.

89coltgt · Post by **89coltgt** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:28 pm

I totally agree with Leon here. Alot of guys that will do these rwd swaps are current or past dsmers and I would bet most have parts sitting around that they would like to use(like an engine). Another plus with the narrow block is that the turbo blocks come with oil squirters, which is a plus imo.

I do however see what Bill is saying about the engine having more "leverage" with the wider bolt pattern, but afaik, there hasn't been a narrow block fail at the mounting points, even at well over 1000 hp.

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:04 pm

okay, we all agree to focus on the narrow block ( which is what I have always done), which flywheel is the best selction for aftermarket parts? FWD or AWD ?

All I would need to do is use one of my narrow block FWD bellhousings as a pattern and allow the casting to ' shrink' when the new casting is done and use that raw casting to use a smaller diameter flywheel and relocate the starter
so its doable with minimal work

GRNDSM · Post by **GRNDSM** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 3:18 am

Bill,

Personally, I already have a FWD ACT FW so I would prefer to stick with it. But looking at what should be best for your project, I think that AWD FW would be a better option.

I spent several hours searching and I haven’t been able to find any other twin disc clutch available for the FWD FW, other than Exidy (at $1775).

Going with AWD FW will still give you that Exidy option, plus you will get Quarter Master and PTT twin discs, which cost around $1000-$1200.

But what is more important is the center hub for the tranny input shaft. Someone would have to check with Exidy, QM and PTT if you can get it for a GM tranny (I am ASSuming that it is different). If you can not, none of this information is relevant

.

pttcolt · Post by **pttcolt** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:37 am

Bill I'm sorry to have created more work for you. I know I haven't been active in posting on this forum I didn't want to sound like some noob coming out of nowhere. All the fastest and highest horsepower cars to date have been powered with the 6 bolt narrow block. The majority of after market parts are sold for the AWD cars. I just didn't want to see you waist time on development and manufacturing of parts that you might only sell a handfull of when you could be working on other things. As for the quartermaster twin disc I have been told it can be splined to whatever shaft needed.

Oh by the way I just got a car worthy of one of your great creations. A 1976colt. Well now I need to find a T56

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 11:54 am

Its really no extra work, I have to substantally lighten this casting , I built it around aFWD model, but I can go in two different directions with it, first to the AWD flywheel and then to the wide block/EVO set up which is much wider

I will be machining this into a narrow block pattern with an AWD flywheel

Cheaptalon · Post by **Cheaptalon** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:56 pm

I would love to be able to run a twin-disk on my Colt. If that means making a casting for an AWD, than I am all for it.

On another note, if I choose to go with a r154 for my build rather than a t56, that is only available for FWD flywheels, correct?

Bill Hincher · Post by **Bill Hincher** » Sat Sep 27, 2008 7:59 pm

well. if its cheaper to build an aAWD flywheel set up, I will go back and standardize all my housings into the AWD

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bellhousing development for T-56 trans

Amazing